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And this magical app determines if the £75 lunch is subsitence, entertaining, or the owners wife's birthday does it?
Just asking.
And also if you don't have a smart phone.......
Probably no more than a faded
"And this magical app determines if the £75 lunch is subsitence, entertaining, or the owners wife's birthday does it?
Just asking.
And also if you don't have a smart phone......."
Probably no more than a faded, crumpled up receipt, provided in a shoe box in December would do...what's your point?
it seems its like xero...
you need to set up rules to identify and allocate the expenses.....wonder who will create these rules....and shockingly what happens when you go to a shop that you have never been before....or worse when you purchase petrol at shell you decide to also get a coffee and bar of chocolate....wonder how 'smart' this software really is....
smoke and mirrors....
Don,t worry
Receipt bank will help you and will send you a email saying thank you for reaching out to us and then not answer the question. So if they don,t know the answer they thank you for reaching out.
I was not reaching out to you receipt bank I just wanted a answer to my question.
In my clients case it kept putting the USA tax as British Vat because it read the word tax. You would think the USD was a clue but hey ho .
and before anyone says you can train it every receipt tends to be from a different company especially if travelling.
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I should point out I feel a bit like my long since dead grandfather (who bought me a second hand computer when I was about 11 that was already obsolete) going on about computers being useless as they would tell you a broken watch (which is right twice a day) is better than one that loses 5 minutes an hour.
I countered "it would depend on the question you asked it".
He liked that and he bought the thing in the first place as he realised it was "the future" even if he didn't understand it.
but he also was smart enough to know there wouldn't be "carebots" tending him in his carehome lifetime (and I doubt there will be in mine) as the functions of computers are simply not that plastic.
This is the point about tech, it only goes so far. Its great for some function but it cant think.
Thinking is the hard bit.
Thanks for the feedback, chaps
Understandably, Receipt Bank's concentration with 1tap is on its current clients. That is, accountants already using Receipt Bank. So 1Tap, to me, seems like quite a neat addition to a cloud practitioner's stable who is already using Receipt Bank.
But the point isn't just 1Tap here. This app is emblematic of the tax regime that the government is hoping to foster. I'd like to commend Receipt Bank for being brave enough to show us its product. They could, of course, be way off base - but, it must be said, they have developed this product under a direct mandate from HM government.
And, this is only a news piece. We'll have a follow up piece next week and will try to answer as many of your questions as we can.
What struck me in our meeting with Receipt Bank last week is that they were very keen to debate and discuss MTD with AccountingWEB members. They are all existing members of the site, too (along with many other vendors).
I'd say we would all get a lot of value from a constructive, respectful debate.
Thanks,
Francois
Therein lies the problem
"Tax doesn't have to be taxing". It doesn't but it is. So we have HMRC who create the crap looking to us to clean up the mess it makes. Sounds par for the course.
It is an app to bring the data to the accountant....
It is also worth noting that the whole aim of the app is to bring the data (and the supporting evidence) to the accountant more quickly than ever before. The accountant is still expected to bring their expertise to bear on the data...
Thanks,
Michael
Receipt Bank
Material to HMRC?
As the article attempts to explain, "It will automatically assign the expense to a default category based on the supplier’s name." Having processed millions of receipts from its users, Receipt Bank has a pretty hefty database it can draw on to identify suppliers and match them to the appropriate expense line.
Our tests found that the results are pretty accurate, but not completely infallible. Receipt Bank's reasoning here is was that as long as they're allowable, it's not material to HMRC whether expenses are classed as "car, van or travel" or "other business expenses".
The other aspect of the app interface worth emphasising is that it is down to the user to apply their judgement about whether to capture the expense or not. The "Information" button currently includes a lot of advice about what can and can't be claimed.
Client education is obviously going to be a significant element of adapting to the new regime.
Hi John, on the contrary to Receipt Bank's reasoning here, it does matter where the expenses are recorded. Penalties are charged at different rates, depending on whether they consider the error(s) to be careless or deliberate or even deliberate & concealed. HMRC's view would probably be that if the taxpayer/accountant hasn't taken enough care to make sure the expenses are shown under the correct heading, what else have they not taken enough care about? This would only play into HMRC's hands to raise more penalties for carelessness.
The need for an accountant...
To state, once again - the aim of the app is to get the data into the hands of the accountant. The app (and the accountant's interface for the app) have been built to ensure that the data is shared with the accountant who we believe has the experience and expertise to deal with the wide range of scenarios that occur in sole trader accounting.
A number of apps are being developed for sole traders that have the explicit aim of removing the accountant and attempting to do the Self Assessment automatically. 1Tap is not amongst them. 1Tap is designed to equip the profession to successfully compete against these applications.
Michael
Receipt Bank
Oh, yes please!
A number of apps are being developed for sole traders that have the explicit aim of removing the accountant and attempting to do the Self Assessment automatically.
This will be great - will just reinforce the value of having an accountant to do a tax return/set of accounts - properly.
Articles like this bring a smile to my face, all the talk a few months ago about the demise of the accountant really are way off the mark.
receipt bank
This is pure marketing and receipt bank is not showing us for constructive discussion. The reason they are showing us this is for pure marketing purposes and to make money in the future
Francois I am okay with that as they are trying to make a living. We have a right to question their software the same as any other software who comes out with marketing press release, pretending it is a news story. Recently though it feels as if Aweb is promoting Receipt bank or who's conference they have been invited to.
I am all for constructive discussion but trying to silence those who ask questions and implying they are preventing constructive discussion is not constructive in my opinion.
So lets not pretend they are awebs friends this is all marketing. The software may well be good but like all other software it needs to be tested which does not seem to be done by these companies.
I know John is a excellent writer and I enjoy reading many of his news stories but I am afraid I don,t feel that way about this one.
I set up a supplier with KPMG receipt bank with details thinking no one else had access it turned out that everyone did. Receipt bank did not seem to see a security issue with that.
I am actually for quarterly returns as I actual think it will lead to less failing businesses.
@john, but the question of what is deductible IS a key issue John. That's what accounts spend a lot of time doing.
There are several functions of bookkeeping and they build on each other.
1. Paying your suppliers, getting paid.
2. Understanding your business
3. Spotting what might be missed or duplicated (ie bank rec!)
4. Working out the tax
if you bodge step (2) by ending up with (essentially) a pile of electronic invoices in an electronic box file that you have paid/received you cant then do step 3, and as for step 4, forget it.
What I think irks is the the thought that a client zapping this invoice in, is somehow "doing the books". They are not, They are chucking data into a data warehouse which if they simply "button press" to HMRC is going to be no less garbage than if the clients carrier bag of receipts is dumped on the front desk of HMRC.
There seems to be a big misunderstanding about what accountants actually DO.
You're right
@john, but the question of what is deductible IS a key issue John. That's what accounts spend a lot of time doing..
And that's what you would continue doing. The accountant is step in the 1tap process. It captures the data, the accountant interprets and sense checks it.
this is where the issue lies
"As the article attempts to explain, "It will automatically assign the expense to a default category based on the supplier’s name." Having processed millions of receipts from its users, Receipt Bank has a pretty hefty database it can draw on to identify suppliers and match them to the appropriate expense line."
This is the issue I have with it . What is one companies overhead can be another's companies cost of sale. Will it pick up Vat correctly because it picked up my clients American receipts as having British Vat even though it was clearly a USD receipt.
Just because it has a large database of suppliers for example Pizza x that could be a staff party , it could be subsistence , or it could just be a meal out that had nothing to do with work and is not a expense. I put my money on it receipt bank will be advertising in the future that it can be done without the help of a accountant.
My experience of receipt bank was I had to change every second code as the coding system is completely dumbed down.
And another thing
when the client fills up with fuel and decides to have a quick coffee, buy a daily paper some sweets, a sandwich for his lunch, [***] and flowers for the wife........guess where the costs will end up!
So a builder
goes to a local builders merchant and buys building materials, a generator and a kitchen for himself. and so on and so forth.
I've got no time for dummies who think they can bypass real work.
Note of correction
"I set up a supplier with KPMG receipt bank with details thinking no one else had access it turned out that everyone did. Receipt bank did not seem to see a security issue with that."
It has come to my attention that this issue as now been resolved. Which is great news.
receipt bank decide
whether it is material or not as to whether an expense gets allocated in the correct 'box'...sounds more like that is what receipt bank hope for. I am guessing (only spit balling) that there is a reason for having specific boxes for types of expense - but I guess the Revenue would be able to tell you as to why. They do have a three line accounts - but if that is all you are going to complete then just add your credits and debits on your statement - why bother with an App...quite disappointed by the complete ignorance of accounts for the sake of an App...
This is a bit
like the QuickBooks ad where a decorator surrounded by paint etc. sends off the invoice to the customer (who is in the kitchen making the decorator a cup of tea and slice of cake - suddenly phone goes with invoice, tea down sink, cake in bin) on his smartphone.
Yep sounds like real life to me.
Well, in 10 years time under MTD
like the QuickBooks ad where a decorator surrounded by paint etc. sends off the invoice to the customer (who is in the kitchen making the decorator a cup of tea and slice of cake - suddenly phone goes with invoice, tea down sink, cake in bin) on his smartphone.
Yep sounds like real life to me.
This is the fact: If HMRC sustains its course, in 10 years time with MTD in full swing, the job of being an accountant will be fundamentally different. The fact is that 1tap is the first indication we have of what that future possibly looks like.
Software vendors are working closely with HMRC (whether you agree with this or not - this is the fact), and I have every reason to believe that a company like Receipt Bank would have real insight into MTD.
Simultaneously, I don't see the point of just broadly saying "Oh this is wrong", and not offering any alternatives. That isn't really conducive to debate.
What do YOU think accountancy will look like in 5-10 years, then? And if it doesn't look like MTD, what will it look like then and what's your source?
Interesting
I haven't used receipt bank so can only make this judgement based on what I have read but the basic principle of the app seems quite interesting for micro businesses.
The key thing for me is to have a basic record of all the expenses and copy invoices attached. If the information is then exportable into a spreadsheet etc you can easily amend it. This is by no means a miracle cure but is in my opinion a positive step forward from a bag of receipts.
The two concerns I have is, firstly the app is indicating which box to put the information into on the tax return and secondly will it incorporate a submit to HMRC button in he future? Both of these factors would clearly indicate that their intention is to bypass the need for an accountant!! If they remove the first issue and create a submit to accountant ONLY button then I would happily push small contractors, window cleaners, hairdressers etc etc in the direction of this app. Unfortunately as long as they're putting indicators that the app can in fact replace accountants, when it clearly can't, I could not support it. Up to you receipt bank!
I think it is telling indeed that HMRC seems to be sharing far more inside and detailed information with companies like ReceiptBank (that are aimed at the SME) than they are with companies like TaxCalc (who work with accountants). According to the article above, companies like RB are helping to design the processes, whereas suppliers like TaxCalc are having to take what gets pushed at them. If this doesn't show that HMRC are pushing the accountant aside, I don't know what does.
Reply to Tim Vane
Tim,
I think there may be some confusion here. Receipt Bank is a business that almost totally works with accountants. We have not been privy to any privileged information from HMRC but we have attended the open days, webinars, etc. that they have organised.
Regards,
Michael
Receipt Bank
Hi Francois
If something isn't broke then you don't have to fix it do you?
Yes of course certain business will be at the forefront of high tech progression but for HMRC (who haven't got a clue what the are doing or what the consequences of what they are doing have on the business world) to force MTD on us is wrong and won't work.
Alternatives to what Francois? Something that already works well?
Progress should be natural. When it's forced all hell breaks loose. If you want an example look at the effect of Drummohr insisting it's customers go onto the cloud. I shudder to think how much business they have lost.
What have HMRC achieved in the last 10 years that isn't crap? RTI, now there's progress for you.
I don't, for a second, believe that MTD or the submission of quarterly accounts will be made compulsory. The only way it could be done is that all business are registered for VAT. Then watch the cash brigade go to town - so HMRC lose again.
You only have to look at the IR35 saga to see what will happen if MTD is compulsory.
You forget Francois, all this is because HMRC want money quicker. There is already a procedure for that.
@The Highlander
The bag of receipts will always be there. They are the source documents that make up the accounts. So will paypal interact with Itap? Or will the bank pick paypal up as a supplier of vapour etc?
It gets silly doesn't it?
It doesn't matter how you analyse source documents they have to be analysed properly. That is the essence of Accounts. Otherwise you just look at the bank statement and take the difference between start and end of period, add on your private expenditure (which you have carefully kept a record of) and hey presto, profit or loss. Who needs Itap.
Volume
What is the cost when the ''within certain volume limits'' is exceeded.
What constitutes being within certain volume limits.
Further explanations please.
All I see from software companies and HMRC is the term ''people with simple tax affairs''
What is the defintion of simple tax affairs.
I think we all know where this is going
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Francios, in answer to your question, in 5 years time I imagine we will have have is quarterly payments based on estimates, which are then revised annually.
Clients will not be obliged to file with their accounts all their invoices. Urgo, they will not scan them all in for fun. The summary data only will be filed, which can be prepared just as now, as client chose to suit their own business, not to enrich software companies. t
Either that, or there will be a meltdown in the accounting profession and HMRC from a wall of poorly formatted data needing unrealistic turn-arounds. The result of this will be a sharp drop in quality and accuracy of returns.
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@Michael, the problem is, fairly or unfairly SOMEONE has sold Gauke and his cronies a complete dud and pretended that an app can somehow create a tax return.
This false assumption is at the absolute heart of the current problems with quarterly reporting, which is probably why if you hang about with them you will get some of the blame.
Gauke and the gang simple don't understand how stupid they sound and seem to assume accountants are just being luddites or scared about their jobs.
Far from it, most accountants are nerds and pretty good with IT, and this will create huge amounts of work for accountants. not less.
@JohnJenkins
One size certainly doesn't fit all and I don't see this as being a suitable app for all client types, far from it in fact. However I could see this being of benefit to some client types.
Paypal is a payment method, there should be a supplier invoice to back that payment up, so in theory at least 1Tap receipt should be able to handle this.
There is of course the underlying issue of bank recs, Paypal account recs etc. That's why I see this app as being more suited to small scale, mainly cash based businesses or having to be used in conjunction with a proper bookkeeping programme.
Oh for goodness sake
At least they've had a go at a solution, way before all the others, it's going to happen get over it.
I and my clients love RB, the expense categorisation, before import into the accounting is really good, I don't see the problem.
The army of unpaid quality control workers
This is the issue that accountants understand, the Treasury mandarins are oblivious to and the more sensible members of the software industry are trying to mediate:
http://adrianpearson.com/blog/2012/8/2/hmrc-to-lose-thousands-of-quality...
You don't appreciate what you've got until it's gone ...
Not listening
I don't have a problem with Receipt Bank the software as its good in parts but I do with the company itself. They simply do not listen to accountants i.e Pricing. I don't get a good vibe when dealing with Receipt bank as if I am not wanted and they are doing me a favour.
Not sure RB actually like accountants apart from the fact they can access their clients but this maybe a mute point in future.
Of course the accountant will be bypassed in due course, its dog eat dog and neither HMRC or the software houses will need them or particularly care for that matter.
Listening to accountants
They simply do not listen to accountants i.e Pricing.
Hi Jim,
I'm sorry to hear you feel this - we do make significant efforts to speak with our Partners and the wider profession at all times. Could you PM me your details and I will give you a call?
Thanks,
Michael
Receipt Bank
"Of course the accountant will be bypassed in due course"
Hopefully, who wants to analyse payments all day?
Where paid from
Does it distinguish between cash, business bank account, business credit card or any other payment source?
Distinguishing payment methods
1Tap won't, at launch, distinguish payment methods.
Thanks,
Michael
Receipt Bank
I am a user of RB and very happy with it. Having done some training of the there are items I can happily can and forget they will be posted correctly into QB as bills or as paid depending on what is on the receipt. This has included hand written receipts.
So for a simple scan and send I now have a good chunk of stuff in and some to be approved which takes much less time than posting in from scratch. I then import my clients bank account which correctly matches the relevant transactions automatically, adds other regulars where there isn't a receipt (such as a DD) and lists any oddities. Having cleared this list my actual bank rec usually takes about 20 seconds.
It isn't perfect, but I am in charge and producing proper accounts. I can set clients on FRS to reclaim no VAT and I have a small shop who go to the wholesaler at least daily and they whizz through the scanner and onto QB for only a minute of my time.
I admit I am an early adopter I remember when I signed up for ELS (and got my free modem) plenty on here saying why should we do HMRC work for them. Well it quickly became apparent that reliably input SA forms put onto HMRC computer instantly meant no error notes to my clients and much quicker repayments. And my paper printing and postage costs were nil.
I was a software conference recently where an accountant said he'd paid £400 to get accounts couriered to C House so they weren't late. He had the software to do this online but hadn't paid for that feature.
Whatever we think of MTD the ability to steamline our processes and work mean that we can do more and I will have clients with online QB accounts so they can do just what they want - from just looking at reports to sending their own invoices to doing it all bar the year end clever stuff.
This stuff gives me the time to think and advise or take on more clients.
I had someone come to me recently for help with her QuickBooks as her accountant doesn't do QB. When I asked how they did her accounts she said that she prints out reports for them.
We do need to explore and look at the new ways of working regardless of the HMRC driver.
This is almost laughable maybe receipt bank should get there current offering to work properly.
I tried there current product and spent hours each month correcting errors.
This is almost laughable maybe receipt bank should get there current offering to work properly.
I tried there current product and spent hours each month correcting errors.
I and my clients have used it for over a year several times a month and not had a problem......15 all