Institute calls for online services watchdog

ELS has deep and wide ramifications, not just among BASDA types, nor professionals but ultimately at the client's doorstep. That's where the pain hits and which professionals have to manage. This is not just a software issue but one with practical implications for anyone engaged with electronic filing.

The problem with working parties in *these circumstances* is they are several steps removed from the coal face of where policy has the greatest impact.

In this case, BASDA has made a clearly expressed case for thinking again. The issue has been well exposed in this community. ICAEW clearly believes there is an issue though I disagree with their solution. Other publishers have picked up on this independently but sporadically.

The broad sense I've got from private email on this topic and in these and other related posts is the message is not getting across to policy makers.

Something isn't working. My argument is simple. Rather than accuse HMRC of being deaf, offer them something that is not retricted to a few special interests but which reflects a broad church of interests. That way you deliver a rounded picture.

As this issue impacts many many people and businesses, rather than have the conversation locked inside a single community, open it up to everyone. Get participation from the major publishers. Enjoin BASDA, ICAEW etc. Let policy makers see what is going on. Allow them to get a sense of the issues. Let them openly discuss - if they choose - so the community has a better sense of what is happening and why.

In other words, be the good citizens we espouse for the benefit of all those we represent. Anything less and I believe *we* will have squandered an opportunity.

The technology is available to facilitate such a way of communicating. As John Stockdyk says: "Over to you to decide." If nothing else, it cannot be worse than believing you're not being listened to, whether true or false.

Wendy & Dennis - this is a very interesting concept and one that we're actively discussing in-house and with other interested parties. Hopefully some of them will come forward and add to the debate.

I talked to one contact who goes along to Working Together meetings and contributes to consultation exercises. This person was quite interested in the idea and said there are HMRC officials who admit there are problems and welcome the feedback, but the shutters go up when issues enter the political arena. There was also a need for some teeth - possibly in the form of peformance penalties - which perhaps a people's watchdog might not be able to deliver.

Let's see how the discussion evolves in the next few days here and at AccMan Pro. As you might expect from AccountingWEB, we're up for anything that uses internet technology to create communities of interest.

John Stokdyk
Technology editor
AccountingWEB.co.uk

May I say that I am more than a little puzzled to find that anyone would think that those of us who represent our professional bodies at Working Together meetings - in my case very costly as a sole practitioner - would do so were it not a worthwhile cause.

Indeed, having done so for a not inconsiderable time for direct taxes and having seen the encouraging results I am now organizing the London meetings (hopefully regional in the future) for indirect taxes.

Anyone wishing me to take forward issues may email me: patriciacaputo@ntlworld.com

I have just found this link and I agree that a internet centre for feedback relating to matters HMRC would be very helpful - I am a sole practitioner and sometimes although there are helplines to use, one can feel somewhat isolated - I am the only one with this problem, it must be me! but if we can share these experiences and even more collate them by way of presenting a united case then much good can be accomplished

Here we go again. Something isn't working, let's set up a watchdog. If you lot over at Chartered Accountants' Hall are listening. YOU DON'T NEED ONE - IT'S A WASTE OF TIME & MONEY. IT PERPETUATES AN OUTDATED CONSULTING MODEL.

There's a much simpler and more cost effective solution. Create a site where you garner user feedback - oi Sift, over to you - or if they can't do it I will. FOR FREE.

Get the professional firms involved. Tell them that feedback is crucially important to get this right.

Get the Institute to get off its backside and do some proper PR - I know an agency or two that will kick butts. Get this into the national press. Get Blair/Brown or whoever is leading the country these days to answer questions that come from real customers as elicited from the website.

Job done.

I'm already seeing a significant up tick in traffic with around 7/10 viewing my current take on this issue for which see:
http://bazzarz.typepad.com/accman/2005/10/els_being_dumpe.html

Fascinated but not surprised to read Wendy's comments; being old and cynical I tend to look at 'Working Together' as just another sop to 'consultation' which we all know is the politicians way of trying to shift the blame for what they're fully intending to do anyway.

We need more than an Online Services watchdog. We need a fully operational site to highlight all areas in which HMRC are lacking, in particular with correspondence delays, unanswered phones, and what has developed into a totally unprofessional service compared with the IR which I joined in 1966.

Take, for example, their failure to process P35's and to make very substantial repayments to Limited Companies with CIS tax credits, going back well over 6 months and well into four figures. Not just one, but numerous. What section of what act permits them to delay repayments in this way ?

What happened to the 'Taxpayers Charter', every paragraph of which appears to be being breached virtually every day ?

Only by putting up a united and really hard-hitting complaints organisation or "Watchdog with teeth", coupled with National Press coverage, can we hope to shame them into achieving some level of efficiency and proper consultation rather than lip-service.

Yes, you set it up, I'll contribute. Regrettably, probably on a very regular basis.

This is a very good idea. Its only pressure groups that change things in the long term. The Revenue staff will probably thank us for it, they are fed up to the back teeth with things as they are. Every time new rules come in they are told to just get on with it and make it work; then the blame is laid at their door if the computer knows nothing of these new rules. Taxpayers Charter? Long gone. Customer Service - gone the same way. 94% accuracy? ????? Some hopes.

Let get started

Whilst we at BASDA agree with you, Dennis about not increasing bureaucracy, we regularly protest in the National and Trade press and in Government magazines - and we have got the press cuttings to prove it.

We have tried responding to their madcap schemes both with positive consultation and offering help and with negative protest and withdrawing our co-operation. None of it seems to work. You can look at our latest response to the online services watchdog at
http://www.basda.org/VD04/default.asp?PSID=82

Their attitude is always that we are being negative and trying to delay their reforms, instead of realising that it is in the interest of the software developers for new systems to work effectively. We have a vested interest in offering useful advice and not trying to meet unrealistic deadlines AND ABOVE ALL NOT TRYING TO INTRODUCE UNTESTED NEW SCHEMES ON THE FIRST DAY OF THE NEW TAX YEAR.

We keep trying but we hold out very little hope that they will change their stance. To HMRC, consultation means them telling us what will happen!!

Wendy Haylock, Communications Director, BASDA
(Business Application Software Developers Association)

Wendy's comments make me feel sad. Here we have a trade organisation (BASDA) led and supported by industry veterans who know what they're doing and, it seems, HMRC is saying - 'Thanks, but no thanks.'

Who is feeding them with the kind of nonsense that allows government to ignore opposition on the sole grounds of 'negativity?' Are there alternatives that can be spelled out to them in words even they will understand.

What would happen if, en masse, the profession 'just said no' backed by research that clearly explained the issues and offered an alternative?

As I've said before, I'm happy to build a single issue site where people can register their views, free of censorship, where the debate can be carried forward and where government can be encouraged to participate. Would that work? Would it influence government? We'll never know unless we try...

You set it up and we will be happy to contribute. We are ready to try anything that helps.

I have got a copy of a letter which we sent to one of the many HMRC officials we have been in touch with in the past year - I wont name the official but we will be happy to give you a copy of the letter to post on your website. It sets out most of what BASDA has been trying to explain to them.

I hope some of the users who have struggled to use the online services will give you their views, too. We need the support of everyone who is likely to be affected. Somehow we have got to make them listen to us.

Wendy Haylock
Communications Director, BASDA