HMRC launches new Charter

The Charter is all very well, but what we as advisors and  unrepresented individuals need to know is what do HMRC regard as a reasonable turnaround on post, how long should a complaint or a repayment take to be dealt with, and why can't I speak to the person who is dealing with my issue.

It appears to me things worked much better in the dim and distant past when named officers had responsibility for a number of clients. You spoke to them and they usually did whatever needed to be done. Now post takes months to be worked, you can only speak to call centres who can't access letters only refer your call back to the processing office who rarely call back.

I've had occasion to need to chase a 4 month old loss carry back claim this week. I had to ring the agent line each time, first they promised a call back which never came, then they put me through to someone who couldn't help because he didn't deal with losses (and was actually physically in another building because Manchester office doesn't take phone calls), promised to call back and didn't. Then the third time i got a weary sounding girl who did actually get someone to deal with the matter albeit the next morning, so big thanks to her. It was however still someone in the other building who has to wait to get the papers from Mcr Office before she can issue the repayment. The letter they have all said was sent out on 6th, still hasn't arrived.

HMRC will continue to be a mess until individual responsibility for work is reinstated, and taxpayers and their agents can speak to someone who can actually do what needs to be done rather than the army of message takers they appear to have at the moment.

I'm old enough to remember "the good old days".

At least then most clients were handled by the local office. One tax Inspector dealt with the file, and if things went wrong, you could go to the local office and sirt it face to face.

Now every phone calls takes 10 minutes of potted music then another 5 minutes answering inane "security questions" only to then discover that you are talking to some junior in a call centre who hasnt got a clue, cant access the files, and can only promise to "get someone to call back" but never does.

What we need is less meaningless "charters" and more decentralisation. We also need HMRC to instruct their largly unqualified staff that accountants usually know a lot more than they do and perhaps if they listened occasionally it would save everyone a lot of time.

Of course weeding out some of the total muppetswho seem to infest HMRC and replacing them with intelligent staff would be even better - but too much to hope for.

Clearly "Welsh Dragon" has not discovered the Agent Priority telephone lines where Agents can speak to someone who knows what to do.

See here: http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/workingtogether/priority-lines-list.htm

While they are fine for a general enquiry, they cannot do anything if you are chasing a refund, reply to post, or anything that needs more than the cursory look at the electronic record. all they do if paperwork is needed is refer the call back to the home office.

Its a P£$% Poor service for agents and taxpayers alike.

Reminds me tho of the time i had some issue or other and wanted to get a technical view on it, so i called the agent line and asked to speak to an Inspector as it was a general technical query. The person at the call centre said if i told her what it was she'd try to help. i explained i thought it needed an Inspector but she insisted. so i went throught it, in full knowledge it was way over her head (not  being disngenuous but I used to work in the old IR so i know how it works/worked), she decided to pass me on to someone else who also didnt understand before they did what I'd asked in the first place and referred the call to an Inspector.  

He actually said that there is still much to be done to improve trust between tax authorities, taxpayers and tax advisers.

Well I've got news for you, Mr Hartnett. That statement is apparently in direct conflict with Revenue policy at local office level.

If a taxpayer misses the filing date for his P11D(b) - this week's example - then, instead of issuing a reminder within a month (ie in August), so charging a £100 penalty, HMRC wait until November so that they can charge a £400 penalty; £100 for each month.  If the taxpayer is informed of his error in August then he can put it right in August. No doubt the quadrupled penalty will be confirmed on appeal because it is within the letter of the law. That does not mean that this doesn't stink, because it does; it stinks to high heaven.

If you want to increase trust then start by eliminating this kind of speed camera mentality within your organisation.

Oh and stop calling us "customers" please. It's an insult. No organisation that did not have a monopoly would treat its customers like this.

Agent Priority Phone Lines

Clearly "Welsh Dragon" has not discovered the Agent Priority telephone lines where Agents can speak to someone who knows what to do.

See here: http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/workingtogether/priority-lines-list.htm

Posted by rkpgreen on Mon, 16/11/2009 - 12:30

Obviously you only deal with extremely simple issues or you wouldnt make such a silly suggestion.

Half the lines dont work and the other half are staffed by call centre staff with zero knowledge.

It really does seem that there are some posaters on this site with grossly over inflated egos. Perhaps when you have been in practice for 40 years and employ over 50 staff you might also have the experience and knowledge to make sarcastic comments. Until then I suggest you refrain from doing so.

Oh, come on! I've just finished a five-year investigation with HMRC which resulted in a £4k tax bill. What did the case cost to run £50k? Or perhaps as much as £100k? Nobody knows!

And that’s just mad: the whole ‘no sense of materiality’ thing is just insane.

If you want to change the system for the better get HMRC bods to log work hours on each case file, if (after say a year) the return looks unrealistic and unprofitable then drop the case. It’s what everybody else in the real world does. It’s simply irresponsible to put £100k of resources into small cases. 

You can have as many charters as you like, until you log work hours nothing will change.

Nick

www.tax-hell.co.uk

Nick

are you seriously saying they shouldn't pursue cases where they think there is tax at stake if it takes too long? That would surely be a charter to drag the case out ad-infinitum, and yes i do know some unscrupulous practices do just that in the hopes the case will get lost on a transfer of staff.

You don't say what sort of enquiry it was or the size of client but a 4K back duty isn't that small. If there was liability why did it drag on 5 years?

Agree though there are a lot of times when they should "take a view" rather than sticking rigidly to their position.

Hi Chris

Chris said, “Nick, are you seriously saying they shouldn't pursue cases where they think there is tax at stake if it takes too long? That would surely be a charter to drag the case out ad-infinitum, and yes i do know some unscrupulous practices do just that in the hopes the case will get lost on a transfer of staff.”

What I’m saying is that if HMRC hasn’t got substantial evidence then it’s wrong to pursue the case over a long period of time – particularly if there only a small amount of money at stake. Even if HMRC is convinced of wrongdoing it shouldn’t run cases on a hunch or embark on a bit of bulling in the hope that a tax payer will ‘crack’ under the pressure.

Chris said, “You don't say what sort of enquiry it was or the size of client but a 4K back duty isn't that small. If there was liability why did it drag on 5 years?”

There are quite a few questions there, an outline of the case is here. You say 4K is not that small for HMRC and you are right, the figures for this type of enquiry yield 1:2 – so for every £1 of taxpayer’s money £2 is generated. And you think – score – they are doubling their money, but it’s actually pitifully low. HMRC should be aiming for at least 1:25. They should dump the small cases that are going nowhere and focus on substantial cases that will bring in some cash for our government.

Chris said, “Agree though there are a lot of times when they should "take a view" rather than sticking rigidly to their position.”

We are on the same track here, but I don’t think HMRC investigators should have a choice: if they are running investigations because they are on some sort of moral crusade (or they think the whole tax system will break down if a plumber gets away with a few cash jobs) then they should be sacked. Investigators exist to get results (and bring in cash) not to flog dead horses for a 1:2 ratio.

Cheers

Nick

www.tax-hell.co.uk

There is sooooooo little here it is a lie to call it a “Charter”. And the header “what businesses dealing with HMRC can expect from the department” is a laugh. What planet do these suits inhabit? I was hoping for something along the lines of……
 
HMRC believes in treating taxpayers fairly. In order to achieve this we will:-

1.    ensure all tax offices are open between 08.30-18.00 m-fm, with real people with an iq > 10 answering the phones.
2.    direct access to local vat offices will be restored so that taxpayers can talk to someone about specifics on their business rather than inaccurate chat with a 12 year old who knows nuffin.
3.    outside these times national contact centres for each main discipline will take enquiries, and be able to access tax payers records
4.    all correspondence received will be at least acknowledged with a specific case officer reference within 14 days of receipt, this will include VAT registrations.
5.    no incoming mail will be ignored or binned
6.    an email communication system will be installed by xx 2010 for tax payers to communicate with us.
7.    The 64-8 form will be re-designed into ‘english’, and allow tax payers to indicate simply which methods of communication and tax areas agents will be authorised for. HMRC will cease the practice of throwing away every other 64-8.
8.    All tax departments will publish on the central website an index of telephone numbers, which will include a ‘real’ telephone number so that mobile phone users can call them without it costing a fortune on 0845/0800 numbers. This will include all government departments so that tax payers ACTUALLY get a choice as to whether they ring the landline number or the 0845 number.
9.    This will also contain a fax number for each office.
10.    All fax machines will be kept operating, the practice of turning them off or having no paper in to fob off taxpayers will cease. When a tax payer rings up and says “your fax machine is not working three times” we will no longer ignore the taxpayer or tell him to  “just keep trying”, we will investigate the problem and rectify it without delay.
11.    all staff required to have telephone contact with taxpayers will have a good conversational command of English, and be able to express themselves clearly on the telephone, and will have a basic knowledge of UK geography.
12.    The pernicious loan shark rates of interest masquerading as “penalties” charged on late vat payments are to be abolished as soon as the regulations can be laid. In future all late payments of tax will attract a uniform late rate of 6% above BOE Base Rate.
13.    all telephone systems will no longer refuse calls when busy. The queuing systems will ensure that calls are dealt with on arrival basis not at random. Our target for picking up a call and talking to you is “within 30 secs”. The performance of every tax office against this standard will be published in a national league tenable. If Euston Corporation Tax Office and Sefton Employers PAYE ever get off joint bottom of this table then we will know that real progress is being made.
14.    If any caller wishes to make a complaint, our staff will no longer wriggle and squirm to avoid allowing the complaint. They will, without argument, put the person through to a complaints team WHO WILL ACTUALLY BE KEEN TO RESOLVE THE COMPLAINT and (take over the phone) full details and make sure the query is dealt with professionally. Our complaints helpsheet will in future also contain a central complaints contact address/telephone/fax number so that we no longer make it as hard as possible to submit complaints.
15.    Our online systems will no longer be “up-graded” across key filing dates e.g. 31st January.
16.    our website indexing will be enhanced by faqs that answer REAL questions rather than just puffing out propaganda. If the answer to an faq is ‘no’ then we will tell the truth in future instead of weasling around.
17.    We want tax-payers to file everything electronically with us. We are allocating online filing credentials to all tax-payers, and will send these to you, supported by a simple verification system that will enable all areas that you choose from one screen. For example so that no one will ever have to fight the onslime VAT system again just to file a vat return. In future all online filings will be eeeeasy to do.

In return we expect taxpayers to treat our staff with respect, and deal with them honestly.
 
I may have a missed a few points?

I am a practising accountant so I deal with hmrc daily, and it is a very un-edifying experience. My staff dread being pushed by me to ring HMRC as they know they will get nowhere, and frustrated.