Treasury Committee puts the boot into HMRC

A report published by the House of Commons Treasury select committee has claimed HMRC’s “unacceptable” quality of service failed due to a number of factors, including “overly ambitious expectations for IT projects, sustained cuts to resources, a management culture of ‘command and control’, increasingly complex tax legislation and the legacy of the merger [between Inland Revenue and HM Customs & Excise].”

It highlighted a number of areas of “serious” concern, including “Unacceptable difficulties contacting HMRC by phone during peak periods,” and, “Endemic delays in responding to post”.
 
The report, Administration and effectiveness of HM Revenue and Customs (PDF download also available), said the organisation would face further difficult years as it moves to resolve open cases in PAYE and “further ambitious IT upgrades”. As a result, the committee warned it would monitor the performance of HMRC during the remainder of the parliament, and “[expects] the department to deliver where substantial improvements have been promised.”
 
The Treasury committee’s report into HMRC follows on from others published in recent weeks, including one from the National Audit Office, which concluded the organisation's planned £1.6bn reduction in running costs represents “a big challenge”.
 
According to the earlier NAO report, HMRC is making progress but warned “it needs to better define the service it is aiming for; improve its understanding of costs; and develop its implementation plan [if it’s to achieve value for money].”

Continued...

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Comments
Top_Cat's picture

EXCUSES

Top_Cat | | Permalink

I'm sick of hearing people claim it's "the cuts" that are causing the problems. that is utter rubbish.

HMRC has been a shambles for years and it really is time for the profession to step forward, start lobbying our MPs and demand changes in attitude from HMRC.  The pompous overbearing "we are never wrong", "you are guilty until proven innocent" approach by the majority of tax officers is unacceptable.

We need to act, we need to refuse to accept poor service, and we need to go over the heads of HMRC and hit our MPs with complaints every time HMRC foul up.

 

John Stokdyk's picture

HMRC chairman apologises

John Stokdyk | | Permalink

HMRC's non-executive chairman, Mike Clasper, made the following comments to the BBC on Saturday, shortly after teh Commons Treasury Select Committee report was published: 

"We are not happy with our performance in 2010... It simply wasn't good enough on post and telephone and I'd like to take the opportunity to apologise to the people who had to take a long time to get through, or we didn't get back to them quick enough with the post.

"In 2011 we've been working very very hard to improve things. We're handling the calls immediately much more frequently than we did in 2010 and as far as individual customers are concerned you know the post levels have dropped in half.  "That's not where we want to be but it's a lot better than where we were in 2010."

HMRC said it has recruited 1,000 extra contact centre advisers to handle calls during "exceptionally busy periods".

HMRC performance

John Snowden | | Permalink

In part I agree with Top Cat.

There really is an attitude problem in HMRC which starts at the top. I see they have been losing cases around the meaning of 'reasonable excuse' for late filing or retuns. This is excellent.

I have been e-mailing my MP for months and months now with examples of utterly awful service and agression on the part of HMRC staff.

 

Nick Graves's picture

Too true.

Nick Graves | | Permalink

I fear if Hartnett doesn't get a dose of reality soon, he could find himself Murdochated. 

A Robin is a bird but not all birds are Robins

Eric Robinson | | Permalink

 Top cat’s sweeping generalisations are not very helpful. Having said that  I agree that making appropriate  representations will be the only way to see some improvement in service.

 

 

A swap that involves the shedding of -say 1000 experienced and capable staff for 1000 raw untrained personnel, who work from a pick list or flow chart, does not seem to be a good deal to me.

 

In truth a great deal more than 1000 staff with years of experience in their grades have been lost to the service over the past few years and those of a comparable background that remain have become bemused and frustrated by poor management at senior levels.

 

In my 35 year experience in HMRC I found certain accountants more capable and professional in their approach than others. It is the same in any walk of life. In the main we all do our best and it is only a minority that seek conflict by being unreasonable. Retaining a sense of proportion – often in difficult circumstances – helps retain a healthy balance.  

 

 

jamesbailey's picture

HMRC meltdown

jamesbailey | | Permalink

We recently complained to HMRC about a repayment they were taking months to process.

 

We received a reply from one of their Complaints people saying that due to the volume of complaints they were dealing with, they would not be able to deal with our complaint for at least 35 days.

 

Needless to say, we complained about this...

 

 James Bailey

Tax Partner

Robinson Reed Layton

johnjenkins's picture

Come back

johnjenkins | | Permalink

Gordon Brown - all is forgiven.

 

 

(joke)

HMRC quality

billy dixon | | Permalink

it was that clowns idea to merge the departments in the first place. It has been chaotic since 2005. I should know I worked for HM C&E the HMRC for 32 years until I managed to 'escape'.

Top_Cat's picture

Sweeping - or experience.

Top_Cat | | Permalink

Top cat’s sweeping generalisations are not very helpful. Having said that I agree that making appropriate representations will be the only way to see some improvement in service. 

Posted by Eric Robinson on Mon, 01/08/2011 - 13:13

 

 

Sadly it's not a "sweeping statement", it's a statement of experience.

HMRC have now been told that their threatening demands sent to taxpayers are, in many cases, ILLEGAL.  Just how low does an organisation have to sink before action is taken?  I would love to see every person who has received one of these illegal demands take HMRC to court for damages. 

There has always been a problem with HMRC staff displaying this "guilty till proven innocent" attitude, and making "demands" which they have no legal right to make. 

HMRC requires drastic surgery, a complete change of attitude, and a change of management and until that happens it will remain a disgrace.

 

Sweeping

Eric Robinson | | Permalink

Personalizing the issues doe not do it for me.

We are all entitled to our opinions Topcat and you are very welcome to yours.

Good luck

 

 

glynisbm's picture

Treasury Report

glynisbm | | Permalink

This is what happens when everything gets centralised in an attempt to save money. For example;

Centralised post room (somewhere in Liverpool I think) so post goes from London to Liverpool, gets sorted gets sent back to London.....you can see where I'm going with this can't you.

Employer end of year section - now centralised in Newcastle....apparantly they are estimating 15 weeks to deal with queries because there just aren't enough staff to deal with the issues from all over the UK.

It's about time that HMRC realised that centralising everything does not work; Graham Black (the ARC union rep) is right the cuts have gone too deep and too fast.

Donald2000's picture

Back to basics

Donald2000 | | Permalink

I am also ex Revenue before it became HMRC. The answer to all these problems is to bring it back to the old district system with a PAYE allocation for each tax officer (or each tax officer higher grade) and to employ a team of inspectors on assessing the ones that the system flags up to be problem cases. Thats what used to happen; in addition there were various specialists within districts who could do what the others could not. I was one such person, being trained on repayment claims, director cases, foreign cases, as well as holding my standard specialisation of PAYE. I left because I felt the management did not respect me. 25 years later I am qualified to BA(Hons) Accounting and Diploma in English Law, as well as having done a considerable amount within commercial practice. I am now semi-retired and disgusted with what I see within HMRC.

You would have thought that really self-assessment would have put paid to all the nonsense but apparently not; why are they all so slow in inputting all the data required and messing about with payments of PAYE and collection data. This is something that all used to be done manually, except for collection data within Shipley, etc. so I dont understand whats going on now. Apart from that we used to asnwer all our own telephone calls and get all our own files from the ranges and diarise important brought forward matters.

If we dont return to an allocations systems with a proper set of officers, the whole system is going to fall apart; I would write to the Chairman of HMRC to offer to tell him how a proper system is run but I think I would find an ostrich in his office when I got to him. Really, this is just too bad.

 

same old

oldersimon | | Permalink

And the sad thing is that none of this tells us anything that we didn't know already.

It probably still makes sense to have one revenue raising body (which was not exactly a whim - the report suggested that Uganda was the only other country maintaing this separation : what did not make sense was to combine this with a ferocious level of staff cuts and an approach to the workers that suggested to them that they were worthless anyway and they certainly weren't going to be paid properly. Also the senior management became less and less likely to be people who knew anything at all about tax.

There was and may still be an ethos of public service, but successive governments have rubbished the idea in favour of adopting all the daft ideas that the private sector comes up with as if they were the revealed word.  

johnjenkins's picture

I suspect, Donald

johnjenkins | | Permalink

that the staff have had enough and are probably just going through the motions. Let's face it whatever they do now is wrong. Talk to us and they get told off don't talk to us and they get crucified, they got no chance.

The answer is quite simple. Gordon Brown destroyed any normallity within HMRC so we need to go back to pre GB days. The only difference I would make is that VAT stays with Inland Revenue but Customs remains seperate ;- that doesn't stop them talking to each other.

The Government need to ask Accountants (not so-called experts) how HMRC should be structured, then we can start getting rid of all the crap. Unless someone does something drastic the situation WILL get worse.

More "people investment" needed

SSamuel2007 | | Permalink

The biggest problem with HMRC is that they employ a lot of people who do not have an accounting or tax background. They then put them on a course and then expect them to deal answer queries on the phone etc. It has never worked and it will never work.

It is the same with some VAT Inspectors, over the years I have seen them miss blinding errors as they are more interested in filing out their forms that looking at the bookkeeping.

If HMRC paid well enough and got some auditors or accountants on board then queries would be dealt with in one phone call rather than several and errors would be picked up and more taxes would be collected.

 

 

 

 

Top_Cat's picture

Personal

Top_Cat | | Permalink

Personalizing the issues doe not do it for me.

We are all entitled to our opinions Topcat and you are very welcome to yours.

 

 

 

Posted by Eric Robinson on Mon, 01/08/2011 - 14:57

 

 

Sorry, but when a client gets a letter threatening him with oublic humiliation if he doesnt pay his tax (even though he doesnt even owe it) then as far as that client is concerned its very personal. 

There are cases of people committing suicide because of threats by HMRC - just how "personal" is that ? 

 

HMRC aren't the only ones at fault...

moufflon | | Permalink

Perhaps if successive governments hadn't pursued policies designed to put thousands and thousands more people every year into higher rate tax and the world of tax returns, HMRC might have rather less workload to address...

Sweeping generalisations

Eric Robinson | | Permalink

 "The pompous overbearing "we are never wrong", "you are guilty until proven innocent" approach by the majority of tax officers is unacceptable".

This is clearly not correct but as I have already said, you are welcome to your opinion.

Please do not attempt to convice me that something is so when I know otherwise.

I will continue to work with professionals on both sides of the fence to make the best of a less than satisfactory situation.  

I wish you well in your efforts to do likewise.

...and there I will draw my own line under this thread.

 

 

"Bureaucrats" and "efficiency"

mikewhit | | Permalink

Trouble is, every government promises "efficiency savings" by cutting "bureaucrats" and "removing duplication of facilities".

So it all depends whether you think that having regional offices that can keep on top of their workload by dint of having more staff overall, who are focussed on their local clients, is "inefficient" or "cost -effective".

Sorry about quote overload, it's meant ironically to refer to what the politicians say.

But the hospitals are learning the lessons about so-called efficiency in terms of resource utilisation, versus infection control and patient outcomes, which may provide an indirect analogy.

Top_Cat's picture

Eric Robinson

Top_Cat | | Permalink

The pompous overbearing "we are never wrong", "you are guilty until proven innocent" approach by the majority of tax officers is unacceptable".

This is clearly not correct but as I have already said, you are welcome to your opinion.

 

 

 

Posted by Eric Robinson on Tue, 02/08/2011 - 11:11

 

 

Actually it is totally correct and indeed is HMRC policy.  Once an assesment is raise by HMRC it is the responsibility of the taxpayer to prove he does not owe the tax demanded, not the responsibility of HMRC to prove it is owed.

Appeal against an assessment and you will be required to prove that your figures are correct, otherwise HMRC's will stand - that is the way the legislation is written.  It flies in the face of 1,000 years of British law and in the face of Article 6 HRA.

So, my statement is in fact totally correct.

 

Stoanulus's picture

Post Delays

Stoanulus | | Permalink

I find it astonishing that the Revenue takes comfort that around 60% of post is turned round in 15 days particularly as I understand that only working days are counted. A three week delay is already excessive and a two month delay is frankly totally unacceptable. The organisation has the gall to refer to their victims as 'customers'.The problem is that these customers are forced to use the only shop in town.

Time for change's picture

Am I being cynical, or,

Time for change | | Permalink

was this report published immediately after the "jolly hols" started for those in Westminster?

Moi, cynical, never!