Trusts? No thanks!

Simon Sweetman wonders why advisers and clients don’t realise that trusts are often more trouble than they’re worth.
As I finished putting another trust case in order and getting its tax returns up to date, I reflected on the problems caused by trusts.
There have always been problems. Twenty years ago I was dealing with a countess who wished to do some IHT planning. It turned out, however, that there was nothing to do because she owned almost nothing. All the assets were in a trust of which she was the life tenant. When she married the man who was then the heir to an earldom she was on the stage and well to do families are often cautious about that sort of thing.
But at least they knew they needed advice. The proliferation of nil-rate band discretionary trusts used as a simple inheritance tax (IHT) planning device in recent years has left untold numbers of disconnected trusts out there, all set up by over enthusiastic will planners, even when the size of the estate didn’t merit it.
Passing over the embarrassing ones where the trust accidentally absorbs the whole estate, there are still problems.
Continued...
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Fair comment but....
The points made are valid but are not all recognisable in my experience. If you run a good Trust practice / department, you make sure you are on top of things, that the client knows what they are doing, that you don't set up Trusts for insignificant amounts (the threshold has increased in recent years due to all the Trust legislation), that the Trustees meet regularly, that you consider winding up Trusts and well as creating new ones etc etc.
Trusts play a valuable part in asset protection - the last Government thought they were all about tax avoidance. Asset Protection is increasingly important to clients these days and a Trust is one of the best ways to achieve that.
I agree that planning to avoid IHT for a client in their 50s should be discouraged but asset protection makes sense at those sort of ages as the next generation starts marrying etc.
nothing but problems and usually no benefit.
large amount of assets put into descretionary trust early 1970's. land and cash.
dad said split it 3 ways between the children and pay the tax.
mum was advised to put into descretionary trust - the assets were hers.
advisers were ' deeply family involved'.
periodic charges have amount to phenominal amount over the time. never given much notice by advisers.
now the beneficiaies are married with grown up children.
all say the 'need' it all including, no doubt the widow of one of the three original beneficiaries as well despite being left a fortune by her late husband.
the 'advisers'/trustees act for some not others concerning their substantial non trust wealth.
trusts - forget them unless for the purposes that they were originally designed for by the knights in armour off to the crusades.
i quote from the writings of charles dickens -
"the one great principle of english law is to make business for itself."
THINK ABOUT IT.
letter of wishes by mother - existence denied by both previous and present trustees.
Stopping the State confiscating your assets.
Apart from tax saving, setting up a trust is useful if you are a single person and getting older and are fearful of being forced into a care home after say, having a fall, whereupon the State will seize your assets, particularly your home, meaning that you will not be able to leave your house and other assets to your relatives.
Transferring the legal title to a third-party in trust nicely avoids this problem as the person still remains the owner of the assets, albeit hidden behind the trust as the beneficiary. Why should old people in the UK who have worked hard all their lives have their assets seized by the State to fund such things as illegal and aggressive wars in places like Iraq and Afghanistan just to maintain the arms industry (and their shareholders) and to provide dubious justification for maintaining the UK's overlarge armed forces to defend what is now in reality a small bankrupt island off the coast of Europe?
good stuff
take the proposed mammoth rail freight terminal at daventry - the gateway of distribution throughout britain for goods primarily from europe and the far east.
problem is that great on desk top and 'project planning' and stakeholders - but what about britain's manufacturing westminsterial aspirations. mothercare have a huge distribution centre at daventry already to distribute goods from the far east.
another problem that is that despite rugby, daventry, northamptonshire, etc.
saying that this project will provide jobs there will only be not more than a few fork lift operators, gantry operators and computer clerks required. so the employment needs will be minimal.
oh i forgot - where is the proposed high speed rail going to fit into all this which is only 5 miles to the south - non stop passenger service from london to birmingham.
shame the old mental institutions have all been closed. with the advent of modern mental care there would be room for those promoting all this.
?is broadmore still open? - maybe more suitable.
phenomenal also it is heralded that british agriculture is a major exporter of goods. by the time all is put together, proof against einstein's theory of relativity will be rolling out of the government's corridors.
if any good, such heralding will encourage more food production so at least the nation stands a chance of being fed in the harder times that are coming from around the corner.
quite bluntly, hitler had aspirations of the united kingdom being the through away area of europe.
the spanish have taken all the herring out of the north sea, now the humble mackerel looks as if it is going to be subject to a cod type war.
....... and the queen was scheduled to launch the a huge liner built abroad while the latest british built royal navy frigate was launched by the wife of some unknown admiral.
should the liner be called hms elizabeth operated by the royal navy and the frigate operated by cunard cruise line?
TINK ABOUT IT!
Confused
The "Good stuff". What is this about?
Weird stuff
Posted to wrong item I guess !
Or could even be an obscure kind of Spam ...
the great depression
i think like many, the 'great depression' clicked in late that night caused significantly by her majesty being scheduled to launch the queen elizabeth - owned ultimately by american company in miami - rather than launch the new british built royal navy frigate on the clyde.
after all the qe was built in italy and most of the crew are non-uk.
also the announcements of several huge rail distribution centres in the west midland for primarily non-uk made goods and produced foods. the complete waste of government over the laste few years on hair brain schemes such as the regional spatial strategies, etc., etc. the effects of hs2.
the seemingly heavy promotion of descretionary trusts as a tax vehicle which are not all they are made out to be.
oh - our own island in the middle of the pacific - just and exercise bike to generate the electrity - fitness will be a priority!
The Law of Trust Accounts
How interesting this is raised after the Income Tax Law re-write and the very welcome HMRC papers (x 2) in 2006!
The true nature of Trust Accounting has been buried by Lincolns Inn and other bodies since the 1930's, for instance:-
1) It is Life Interests / Life tenants who in fact "sign off" as express approval with formal signification an Income and Expenditure account looking at "stated accounts" produced by trustees or a Life Tenant account (in either hands the Gross Income is vested in the lifeowner of income) to derive an agreed balance for a "settled account", not trustee accountants merely "dumping a set of accounts" on beneficiaries
2) Books such as "The Law of Trust Accounts" by Walter Strachan 1937 are still the true law today, also Gover on "The Law of Capital and Income" and "The Law of Repairs and Improvements" by Jackson, where in fact a sole Life Interest or all fixed vested indefeasible shares for Life Interests or (if no more beneficiaries in a discretionary trust) all Income Beneficiaries can "call on" the gross Income (not net income as Lincolns Inn propounds) putting a stop to ongoing income expenses initiated by trustees, it being a personal indemity for expenses at the consent of the Life Interest so enabling the Life Interest to do his own accounts and tax return!
3) This is all Re Nelson 1916, re Smith 1928 and the usual Saunders-v-Vautier" but few know it applies to Income not just Capital....it means Life tenants are not liable to repairs per se as the whole income for the whole year for the whole property is as of right theirs
4) S.38 and S42 FA98, 02, 05 and S.500(4) ITA 2007 means "straight conduit accounting" for in specie enjoyment of Gross Income for (why is ICAEW dragging its feet) the Accountants Report "...in accordance with UK GAAP" for any tax return
5) The legal Model is Court Order, Settlor's Powers and Charging Provisions over Statute over Case Law meaning Accountants Report is ".....in accordance with the Settlement Deed and Trust Instrument Powers and Provisions"
6) S.13 Public Trustee Act 1906 is good law in England aand many Commonwealth Countries as the only means of a beneficiary trust audit in equity...IT IS ENFORCEABLE IN THE COURTS WITH EQUAL STANDING TO A MASTERS REPORT AND CERT AND ACCOUNTS, the Act being in lieu of an expensive Court Account. The Common Account is adopted by a Judge and enforced like any other debt where the trustee is forced to hand over the balance, the Public trustee being the "surrogate accounting function" standing in the shoes of Master AND normal trustee.
7) The old law for S.29 LPA now S.12/S13(1) TLATA is for the same "beneficial Estate in Land" as already recognised in SLA 1882 where in fact it does not matter a trust for sale (conversion) exists since the Enitlement in Possession is in "unsold money land" in specie Gross Income until sold ...displacing the discretionary S.28 LPA
If anybody wants to know things Lincolns Inn dont want to publicise, ask me....I contributed to this years Bill for Capital and Income of Trusts before parliament Tim Smith
which simply brings us back round to
does the client have a clue what they are doing/what their rights are as beneficiary (or obligations as trustee) and does the adviser really know as well?
I agree totally about ring fencing assets. This is what trusts were originally for and I think that they should only be used if this is what is required. Just as I believe you should only set up a limited company if you need it for a reason other than to save tax.




Thank you Simon
I feel this is a bit of a "taboo" subject with tax advisers and it's good to see someone airing it.
Like investments, I feel strongly no one should set up a trust unless they fully understand what it is all about, what it is going to cost in professional fees and how you get out of it - and who needs to agree to that exit route.
It is very easy for an adviser to suggest a trust and then walk away from the consequences down the line when these could be years away.
I was asked (before the IHT rules changed) to comment on a nil rate band discretionary trust to be set up for a widow ie the solicitor was planning to vary her late husband's will. On paper - a saving of about 100k IHT (maybe slightly less). Standard planning you'll think.
Problem I saw - she was only 52 and could live another 40 years - so what IHT was being saved? What might the rules be in 40 years' time and even if they were the same add up the £1k or more a year on professional fees to do returns/check position - and that alone halves the saving (and if the fees were nearer 2k the saving could disappear).
And of course the rules changed anyway.
She and her children had absolutely not the most basic idea of what a trust was or what it did. They would have had to pay out for professional advice at every step.
A better option would have been a life assurance policy to cover any IHT when she died (she had few other assets).