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30-day CGT reporting

aaaaarghhhhh!!!

Didn't find your answer?

Have just sent an email to my Institute (CIOT) asking that they do more to sort out this ridiculously complicated process.

My tech savvy clients have no problem obtaining the Gateway number but the process then asks for both a passport verification (fine) and credit agency questions (which no one can remember the answer to). The CIOT workaround which is just meant to require an email address asks for the same info.

On hold with HMRC for 40 mins. Then spoke to an advisor who had no idea what I was talking about when I requested the PPD CGT form and cut me off whilst transferring me to a technical adviser. My favourite part of the conversation was when he said the alternative was to put it on the (20/21) tax return instead.

It shouldn't be this hard to pay the right tax at the right time.

Has anyone found any alternatives to the process above?

Replies (61)

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By ireallyshouldknowthisbut
10th Dec 2020 14:46

I am using the workaround HMRC told me about - log in using your own personal ID (ie NOT your agent ID), and file it on behalf of your client.

No mucking about with log ins, portals of codes, you are bang into the form.

Its bizarre that Joe public can do this, but agents are prevented from a similar easy method of filing. You would think we could just do it with agent ID or 3rd party software.

Last time i spoke to HMRC about this their team was spitting feathers about how poor this system was, and how many calls they had to deal with to make it work.

**edited for clarity in first line**

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Replying to ireallyshouldknowthisbut:
blue sheep
By Nigel Henshaw
10th Dec 2020 12:50

ireallyshouldknowthisbut wrote:

I am using the workaround HMRC told me about - log in using your own ID, and file it on behalf of your client.

No mucking about with log ins, portals of codes, you are bang into the form.

I must be missing something here, I thought they had to setup a CGT account and provide you with the code and then you had to add it to your ASA - is that what you mean by using your own login?

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Replying to NH:
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By Justin Bryant
10th Dec 2020 12:52

There is some "capacitor" thingy explanation re this on HMRC's website, but go the paper route is my advice.

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Replying to NH:
By ireallyshouldknowthisbut
10th Dec 2020 14:47

NH wrote:

ireallyshouldknowthisbut wrote:

I must be missing something here, I thought they had to setup a CGT account and provide you with the code and then you had to add it to your ASA - is that what you mean by using your own login?

Well you CAN do that, or you can log in as an individual. And if you follow the link you can file for a third party. Its what HMRC told me to do, and its 100 times easier as you are not asking the client to set up an account, or provide codes. Main issue is you can't edit file returns, or at least last time I needed to I couldn't.

You get the payment references instantly. Paper route I have not tried, but I cant imagine they are very fast.

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Replying to ireallyshouldknowthisbut:
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By Homeworker
14th Dec 2020 10:15

Having tried the paper route for my first client (who wasn't computer enabled) - three phone calls, each lasting at least half an hour, being cut off, sent a tax return page (hence the extra phone calls) and eventually ending up with FOUR paper forms - when I needed to deal with a second declaration I took the same route of signing in through my own personal tax account. I was very nervous about doing so but as NH said it was quick and easy and I was able to supply the client with the necessary payment reference straight away.
As far as I know, my first client is still waiting for his payment reference, having posted the paper return back in September! I am waiting to appeal the late payment penalty.

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By Justin Bryant
10th Dec 2020 12:51

If you can get hold of a blank paper return you are laughing basically. I guard mine jealously.

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Replying to Justin Bryant:
Scooby
By gainsborough
10th Dec 2020 12:53

I'm not surprised. You were right in your previous post when you said they would become like gold dust (although I would settle for HMRC at least knowing what form I am talking about!)

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Replying to Justin Bryant:
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By JD
10th Dec 2020 14:07

I am keeping mine hidden - lets hope I can find it when it is needed

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Replying to Justin Bryant:
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By bosclibby
14th Dec 2020 09:35

Yep - got a paper form from a client and have kept it to copy and amend as and when necessary

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Replying to bosclibby:
n/a
By Trish Baillie
14th Dec 2020 09:59

Same here - I have my copies hidden!

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Scooby
By gainsborough
10th Dec 2020 12:52

Many thanks Ireallyshould..! I'm assuming you used your own personal Gateway login rather than any agent ID? I will give this a go.

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RLI
By lionofludesch
10th Dec 2020 13:49

I wrote to all my property owning clients in February, telling them this new thing was coming in.

I found out last month that one of them had sold a property earlier this year. Never mentioned it.

Still, I'm only doing up to 2019/20. Perhaps his new accountant has seen to it .....

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Replying to lionofludesch:
Scooby
By gainsborough
10th Dec 2020 15:01

Same issue here Lion. Spoke to client on the phone about it in Feb, sent an email in June which they replied to. They sold a property in Sept which I am just finding out about today....Heaven help the unrepresented, who most likely won't find out they are late until January 2022!

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Replying to gainsborough:
RLI
By lionofludesch
10th Dec 2020 15:17

I had enough trouble explaining that they were liable to CGT on houses they lived in for a couple of years before renting them out for twenty.

I don't really understand the purpose. Yes - they get the money earlier and the Government works on a cash basis. But is the timing advantage worth setting up this system that doesn't work ? Is it about increasing revenue through interest and penalties from unsuspecting taxpayers ?

It's just too sly for me.

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Replying to lionofludesch:
Scooby
By gainsborough
10th Dec 2020 15:33

Agree. Both sly and too much guesswork re what levels of lower/higher rate CGT will apply.

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Replying to lionofludesch:
By ireallyshouldknowthisbut
10th Dec 2020 16:34

@Lion

The original idea was to levy a withholding tax on the sale, and then you fill in a CGT form to claw it back, possibly as early as the date of completion.
But that bit of it was dropped, so we are now left with the bizarre situation of a tax point with no point which fails in its purposes of collecting taxes on the date of sale for those that would not normally declare it, and just accelerates tax payment dates by an average 14 months for those that would pay it anyhow. Tax payments you of course have to guess for many clients who are BR and might be HR.

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Replying to ireallyshouldknowthisbut:
RLI
By lionofludesch
10th Dec 2020 16:44

So it's a great idea, which didn't work in practice, but the Government still ploughed on regardless.

Sounds about right .....

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Replying to lionofludesch:
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By sammerchant
14th Dec 2020 11:12

'Twas ever thus - HMRC and IT!

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By carnmores
10th Dec 2020 17:49

same thing with my agent services account , i have an irish passport , can i find a telephone number to ring , not on your nelly

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By Duggimon
11th Dec 2020 09:47

gainsborough wrote:

My favourite part of the conversation was when he said the alternative was to put it on the (20/21) tax return instead.

Now if you'd been recording that you'd be sorted, no need to file, HMRC advice was that it's not required.

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By Donald MacKenzie
14th Dec 2020 10:12

I did my first residential CGT under new rules last month. Utter nightmare trying to get the client to set up a Tax Account, then get a CGT property number. I ended up getting her Gateway details and going through the process as her, with her on the end of a 'phone providing the information I lacked.
Why does HMRC make it so hard for agents to help clients with this?

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By Andrew Lee
14th Dec 2020 10:50

I agree the new system is ridiculous and that "digital handshakes" are unnecessarily cumbersome and extremely frustrating. However, this seems to be the route HMRC has chosen for all future developments and this is all set-out in the latest Agent Update I received last week, which is very depressing. The Update says fresh authority is needed from the client, as existing authorities (64-8 etc.) do not specifically cover CGT! I therefore wonder why they have been dealing with us directly in respect of CGT for all years prior to 2020/21. I do not see why it is necessary to create a new authority just to declare a liability and it is interesting to read the process is simpler for ATED, because the risk of fraud is lower when only declaring a liability. Combined with the TRS travails, I have frequently wanted to throw my computer out of the window....

Thank goodness for the Xmas break, it cannot come soon enough for me.

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Replying to Andrew Lee:
blue sheep
By Nigel Henshaw
14th Dec 2020 11:03

You are having a Xmas break? Lucky old you!

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Replying to NH:
Morph
By kevinringer
15th Dec 2020 15:42

Us accountants always get an Xmas break. Every February.

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By Ammie
14th Dec 2020 10:58

More and more HMRC admin is time consuming and onerous on agents and taxpayers and frightfully easy to get wrong and to suffer penalties.

The power of legislation with weak or no admin follow up is worrying, not mention irritating. Its almost as if its intended that way.

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By 4b4
14th Dec 2020 11:23

Penalty Farming - simple as that!
A ridiculous system designed to be ridiculously difficult for joe public to use (don't forget, no one needs Accountants anymore)!

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7om
By Tom 7000
14th Dec 2020 11:33

When I said to the GCGT people why do we charge so much for doing this.... to quote a new client.....they shouted at me....

and after some discussion...I said well that's a silly way to do it.

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By Software Seeker
14th Dec 2020 12:43

I've done a few - each time following the HMRC system. I haven't tried any work-arounds. The first was difficult, not least because it was as new to me as it was to the client. The next was a little easier, the next a little easier...and so on. I'm seeing it as a good opportunity for a bit of client hand-holding/PR. The harder the system is in the client's eyes the more they see us as their saviour. Helps build relationships.

Then again, what absolute numpty thought up this entire process???

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Replying to Software Seeker:
RLI
By lionofludesch
14th Dec 2020 12:51

Software Seeker wrote:

Then again, what absolute numpty thought up this entire process???

A bloke who would never need to use it.

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By Comptable
14th Dec 2020 15:24

It seems that quite a few people have paper forms.
Are they personalised in some way? If not can you not share them with others?
Maybe if they are personalised you can delete that bit and the share them!
That would be very helpful!

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Replying to Comptable:
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By Justin Bryant
15th Dec 2020 09:32

The paper forms are simply wonderful, a breeze and are blank and are invariably accepted by HMRC.

If you send me a SAE and agree to make a £20 donation to any charity of your choice I will post you a copy (HMRC accept photocopies).

Blackfriars Tax Solutions LLP, 6th Floor, 2 London Wall Place, London EC2Y 5AU

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Replying to Justin Bryant:
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By sammerchant
15th Dec 2020 13:04

A true Accountant!

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Replying to Justin Bryant:
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By Comptable
16th Dec 2020 16:29

I will make a donation of £50 to my local food bank if, rather than messing about with sales and such, you email me a pdf of the form. I think that you can probably send it to me via a private message on this website.
That sound like a good deal.
Is it acceptable to you?

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Replying to Comptable:
RLI
By lionofludesch
16th Dec 2020 16:33

Comptable wrote:

I will make a donation of £50 to my local food bank if, rather than messing about with sales and such, you email me a pdf of the form. I think that you can probably send it to me via a private message on this website.
That sound like a good deal.
Is it acceptable to you?

This is ridiculous.

There's now a black market in government forms.

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Replying to lionofludesch:
blue sheep
By Nigel Henshaw
16th Dec 2020 16:59

This is a new low

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Replying to Comptable:
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By Comptable
17th Dec 2020 17:44

Justin
I took the stuff - actually £77.20 of food and toiletries which is what they said they needed - to the food bank today.
Please may I have the form now?
many thanks

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By Comptable
14th Dec 2020 15:25

.

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By fawltybasil2575
15th Dec 2020 13:39

Without wishing to deny charitable donations to those accepting Justin’s offer of posting a blank form (I am assuming in that regard that he would extend his kind offer likewise to other AWEB members) I would suggest that all that is required is a letter to HMRC along the lines of:-

“To enable me to ensure that the required return is submitted, for my above client, to HMRC (within the required 30 days of completion) in respect of CGT payable on a residential property (such return being required under S.14 and Para 3(1) of the Finance Act 2019) please forward IMMEDIATELY to me a blank “paper form” which complies with that legislation”.

If perchance the blank form is not received in time for the submission, then a “bespoke form” should be submitted to HMRC (indicating, in the covering letter, that HMRC failed to provide the blank form requested). That bespoke form should include workings for the CGT payable. A cheque should also be included, with the letter and form.

Basil.

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Replying to fawltybasil2575:
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By Justin Bryant
15th Dec 2020 13:47

But for a £20 gift to a charity of your choice (or I can suggest a good one) you can avoid any potential argument/penalty risk there.

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Replying to fawltybasil2575:
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By richard thomas
15th Dec 2020 16:45

I would strongly advise that a bespoke form to be valid must contain a declaration that to the best of the knowledge of the maker the return is correct and complete - see para 16(b) Sch 2 FA 2019. This mirrors s 8(2) TMA for the annual return.

I am not not sure what arguments/penalty risks Justin was referring to above, but if it was not this one, perhaps he could enlighten us.

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blue sheep
By Nigel Henshaw
15th Dec 2020 13:46

Whilst I applaud you Justin for your kindness, I am at somewhat of a loss as to understand why members do not simply follow the HMRC system, yes its annoying but its not really that difficult - by the time you have faffed about with filling in the form, posting it, HMRC probably losing it, you having to chase HMRC, contest penalties and resubmit forms etc you could have just done it online

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Replying to NH:
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By Justin Bryant
15th Dec 2020 13:50

Not so. It has never taken more than 10 mins to complete the paper form and it has never not been 100% accepted by HMRC (in my experience at least).

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Replying to Justin Bryant:
blue sheep
By Nigel Henshaw
15th Dec 2020 13:53

I obviously have much less confidence in the mail handling capabilities at HMRC having had numerous experiences of their losing paperwork!

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Replying to NH:
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By sammerchant
15th Dec 2020 15:34

Besides, you have immediate confirmation of its receipt by HMRC.

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Replying to NH:
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By sammerchant
15th Dec 2020 15:34

Besides, you have immediate confirmation of its receipt by HMRC.

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By Software Seeker
17th Dec 2020 07:25

Can I please just clarify that a submission does NOT need to be made where there is no tax payable (I.e. the gain is covered by the annual exemption)? When I last looked that was the case but just checking there’s been no changes. Thanks.

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Replying to Software Seeker:
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By Wanderer
17th Dec 2020 07:34

Depends on residence status of the taxpayer.

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Replying to Wanderer:
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By Software Seeker
17th Dec 2020 07:53

Wanderer wrote:

Depends on residence status of the taxpayer.

Uk resident.

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Replying to Software Seeker:
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By Software Seeker
17th Dec 2020 17:21

@wanderer

Found it. UK resident only submits a 30-day Return if tax is payable. Sch 2 Para 4 FA 2019.

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By sammerchant
17th Dec 2020 16:39

If someone from HMRC is signed up to AW and is following the thread, he/she could have a nice little earner in these forms, by undercutting Justin and charging say, £10 or £15. Mind, it would not work for long as copies would flood the market!

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