Hello
A self employed sole trader client has passed away so has been removed from our agent account.
Wife is executor and she has signed a form 64-8 as executor with his UTR etc
Question is do any documents need to be sent in with it, eg death certificate, grant of probate or letters of administration or do you just submit the 64-8 alone?
Cannot get through on HMRC agent helpline or chat facility and cannot find specific criteria online.
thank you
Replies (27)
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Not quite sure what you mean, my reply was trying to say that I don’t need a new UTR , trying to regain access to data on the deceased’s tax account.
The estate will have a different UTR to both the deceased and Mrs Deceased.
So - yes, you must get a new UTR before you can submit form 64-8
I will admit that I'm relying a little in memory here but, I did go through this about 5 years ago. The client (a family member) passed away and his wife was executor.
I don't actually recall whether the client was ever removed from my agent account (sorry) but, I do know I was able to file the ITR (with relevant disclosure regarding date of death and approval by executor etc.). It is entirely possible this filing was made on a "file only" basis using the deceased's UTR.
Do you specifically need access to the data in the tax account, or are you simply looking to file the final return(s)? If the latter, "file-only" or "paper-filing" may be the preferred option.
I am slightly confused though... is this a 2019/20 return for a death that has occurred this tax year? If so, there will be probably be a return for 2020/21! I found it impossible to file this before April (HMRC kept telling me to download a paper copy and submit that - even though the said paper copy wasn't available until March!!!) - the probate solicitor on the other hand was less than understanding of the delay (I was "fortunate" that the death occurred in November and not April/ May).
Incidentally, as for the wife/ executor having a personal UTR, that is entirely irrelevant I'm afraid. As executor she is handling the deceased's affairs on behalf of the estate. Even if she is the sole benefciary, the money (and tax liability - although HMRC will try to disagree) is not "hers" until probate has completed.
I'm certain others will have better, more concrete advice, I'm just trying to relay my experiences!
But your first reply never mentioned your utr or anyone else's. You took the reply to mean that. But it didn't.
Sorry if my reply to the first post was confusing.
I thought my original question was quite clear about using the deceased’s UTR though...
How easy it is to misread!
For the estate itself (income after date of death) one might need a new UTR - not the deceased's, not the widow's, one unique to the estate.
But even with the confusion I think we've got there! :-)
This happens as a result of the 'Tell Us Once' service.
Go into you agents account and request authorisation again using the deceased client's UTR and the wife's postcode. Make sure you go through both stages for getting the letter issued.
About ten days later wife will receive the usual letter with the authorisation code which she can pass on to you to enter back into SA system and allow you to re-obtain access to deceased's SA account.
The letter will be addressed to the wife and at first may be misinterpreted as the wife's SA account. It won't be. Once you have access you will see from the history that it is, in fact, the deceased's account.
Don't bother sending the paper 64-8, it will take months, if it ever happens at all. You don't need to send grant of probate / letters of administration in at all.
Ignore Youareatit's 07th Jan 2021 22:47 post above (sorry Youareatit), DKB-Sheffield has got it 100% correct.
Just to add... you need to be reauthorised because your client engagement died with the client. The reauthorisation reflects a new engagement with the Executors/rices.
Also, per the above, never ever take the first answer you see (in a forum) as being authoritative. Or correct. Even when there's no particularly technical content*, people can misread or misunderstand or or or. Youareatit may well have thought you were talking about tax returns for the estate, not those to date of death. Hence, different answer.
*If there is such content, I'd say be very careful with any and all of the answers.
Agreed, however, to add, when dealing with the estate this can often be handled under the original UTR as a reference if dealt with using the informal payment procedures.
Nope, informal procedure can never be done online. But if you use the online system to get access to the deceased's SA account, in the way I have described, then HMRC take that as sufficient authority when you write in to settle the estate liability under the informal payment procedures. (In the OP's case, as they already have a paper 64-8, I'd probably include that as well under a belt & braces approach.)
Hi.
I did this only a few months ago.
I contacted HMRC and advised of the death. Immediately, the client was removed from my agent account.
I then had a new 64-8 signed by the client’s widow (also executor), using same UTR. Placed widow’s details on the form.
I then sent the form along with a copy of the death certificate, the will and a covering letter explaining what we wanted.
Within a week or so, my agency was re-authorised to act on behalf of the client/widow.
I then completed an SA100 as normal, submitted it and as it happens, gained a tax refund (client had fully paid the POAs) for his widow.
All very straightforward, but very sad as I particularly liked the client.
Just to add to based on my recent experience, though only with relation to HMRC references. My mother died in Sept and I am doing the estate myself. Her 2019/20 was already finalised at the time of her death. Under "Tell her once" I received a letter from HMRC within 2 weeks of death with a paper tax return to complete for 2020/21. The UTR is the same as for when she was alive. IE you do not need/get a new UTR for the deceased. However, the executors DO need to apply to HMRC for an IHT reference number if the estate falls to be reported to HMRC for IHT purposes.
And also a new UTR for the Estate if an IT or CGT liability arises for the period of administration which can't be dealt with under the simplified procedures.
Yes agree, though that is further down the line once probate has been received and the estate income known. I have all that fun and the R185s to look forward to. I do find it strange that as an an individual administering an estate, I have to everything with HMRC by paper.
Just so you now you can, in fact, complete the final tax return for the period 6 April to the date of death online, provided you wait until after 5 April next. This is my preferred method as it takes the manual element of HMRC out of the processing.
Subsequent Estate returns can also, of course, be completed online.
True, but then you have to wait until after 5 April. The income tax figure is needed for IHT , so that's great if the person died near the end of the tax year but adds in several month's delay if not.
Case in point: My Mother died in September. The income tax liability was agreed with HMRC at the end of December enabling me to apply for probate in January.
I really don't understand why HMRC don't have an "executor portal" where you submit the tax return for the year of death as well as IHT forms. It would be so much easier. I'm guessing other priorities and possible changes to IHT are the reasons why not. Shame though.
You don't need to submit the final IT return nor agree it with HMRC to apply for probate. You can just calculate & include the IT liability in the IHT calculations. There is no need for any delay whatsoever on this point.
Just a quick update.
The refund for the widow arrived this morning.
Having deducted my fee (£35.00 - client had already paid much of his costs up front), transferred the balance to his widow.
All sorted.
Found the whole process reasonably straight-forward, even if it did take a little longer than expected; though I guess COVID does not help.