64-8 when a client has died

Any other documents required?

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Hello

A self employed sole trader client has passed away so has been removed from our agent account.
Wife is executor and she has signed a form 64-8 as executor with his UTR etc

Question is do any documents need to be sent in with it, eg death certificate, grant of probate or letters of administration or do you just submit the 64-8 alone?

Cannot get through on HMRC agent helpline or chat facility and cannot find specific criteria online.

thank you 

Replies (27)

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By Youareatit
07th Jan 2021 22:47

You cannot use that UTR, you need a new one.

Speak to the bereavement line.

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Replying to Youareatit:
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By JoandToby
07th Jan 2021 23:10

Hi thank you but we are trying to get the deceased client back onto our agent account as we need to submit final accounts/tax return and be able to speak to HMRC so his account will go back on agent client list but with his wife as executor

She already has a UTR in her own right as she is self employed

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Replying to JoandToby:
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By SXGuy
08th Jan 2021 07:59

That's not what was said. Read the answer again.

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Replying to SXGuy:
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By JoandToby
08th Jan 2021 08:06

Not quite sure what you mean, my reply was trying to say that I don’t need a new UTR , trying to regain access to data on the deceased’s tax account.

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Replying to JoandToby:
RLI
By lionofludesch
08th Jan 2021 23:25

JoandToby wrote:

Not quite sure what you mean, my reply was trying to say that I don’t need a new UTR , trying to regain access to data on the deceased’s tax account.

The estate will have a different UTR to both the deceased and Mrs Deceased.

So - yes, you must get a new UTR before you can submit form 64-8

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Replying to lionofludesch:
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By Tax Dragon
08th Jan 2021 23:49

Read the thread, Liono.

(.oO Soooo easy to get the wrong end of sticks.)

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By DKB-Sheffield
08th Jan 2021 01:43

I will admit that I'm relying a little in memory here but, I did go through this about 5 years ago. The client (a family member) passed away and his wife was executor.

I don't actually recall whether the client was ever removed from my agent account (sorry) but, I do know I was able to file the ITR (with relevant disclosure regarding date of death and approval by executor etc.). It is entirely possible this filing was made on a "file only" basis using the deceased's UTR.

Do you specifically need access to the data in the tax account, or are you simply looking to file the final return(s)? If the latter, "file-only" or "paper-filing" may be the preferred option.

I am slightly confused though... is this a 2019/20 return for a death that has occurred this tax year? If so, there will be probably be a return for 2020/21! I found it impossible to file this before April (HMRC kept telling me to download a paper copy and submit that - even though the said paper copy wasn't available until March!!!) - the probate solicitor on the other hand was less than understanding of the delay (I was "fortunate" that the death occurred in November and not April/ May).

Incidentally, as for the wife/ executor having a personal UTR, that is entirely irrelevant I'm afraid. As executor she is handling the deceased's affairs on behalf of the estate. Even if she is the sole benefciary, the money (and tax liability - although HMRC will try to disagree) is not "hers" until probate has completed.

I'm certain others will have better, more concrete advice, I'm just trying to relay my experiences!

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Replying to DKB-Sheffield:
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By JoandToby
08th Jan 2021 07:59

Hi thank you so much, yes client died june 2020 . His 2019/20 was submitted in may so thats all sorted so its mainly just to check data on his account. Yes i realised about wifes utr being irrelevant, it was more me trying to clarify to the first reply about needing another UTR. Thank you for your reply, really appreciated

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Replying to JoandToby:
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By SXGuy
08th Jan 2021 08:01

But your first reply never mentioned your utr or anyone else's. You took the reply to mean that. But it didn't.

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Replying to SXGuy:
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By JoandToby
08th Jan 2021 08:09

Sorry if my reply to the first post was confusing.

I thought my original question was quite clear about using the deceased’s UTR though...

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Replying to JoandToby:
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By Tax Dragon
08th Jan 2021 08:29

JoandToby wrote:

Sorry if my reply to the first post was confusing.

I thought my original question was quite clear about using the deceased’s UTR though...

How easy it is to misread!

For the estate itself (income after date of death) one might need a new UTR - not the deceased's, not the widow's, one unique to the estate.

But even with the confusion I think we've got there! :-)

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Replying to Tax Dragon:
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By JoandToby
08th Jan 2021 08:52

Yes, that’s the main thing! Thanks

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By Wanderer
08th Jan 2021 03:52

This happens as a result of the 'Tell Us Once' service.

Go into you agents account and request authorisation again using the deceased client's UTR and the wife's postcode. Make sure you go through both stages for getting the letter issued.

About ten days later wife will receive the usual letter with the authorisation code which she can pass on to you to enter back into SA system and allow you to re-obtain access to deceased's SA account.

The letter will be addressed to the wife and at first may be misinterpreted as the wife's SA account. It won't be. Once you have access you will see from the history that it is, in fact, the deceased's account.

Don't bother sending the paper 64-8, it will take months, if it ever happens at all. You don't need to send grant of probate / letters of administration in at all.

Ignore Youareatit's 07th Jan 2021 22:47 post above (sorry Youareatit), DKB-Sheffield has got it 100% correct.

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Replying to Wanderer:
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By JoandToby
08th Jan 2021 08:02

Ah, brilliant, i will do this.
I had assumed as it was a death that hmrc would probably want a paper version but if it can be done as a normal online authorisation, that will make things a lot easier!

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By Tax Dragon
08th Jan 2021 06:36

Just to add... you need to be reauthorised because your client engagement died with the client. The reauthorisation reflects a new engagement with the Executors/rices.

Also, per the above, never ever take the first answer you see (in a forum) as being authoritative. Or correct. Even when there's no particularly technical content*, people can misread or misunderstand or or or. Youareatit may well have thought you were talking about tax returns for the estate, not those to date of death. Hence, different answer.

*If there is such content, I'd say be very careful with any and all of the answers.

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Replying to Tax Dragon:
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By Wanderer
08th Jan 2021 06:36

Agreed, however, to add, when dealing with the estate this can often be handled under the original UTR as a reference if dealt with using the informal payment procedures.

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Replying to Wanderer:
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By Tax Dragon
08th Jan 2021 07:10

But that bit can't be done online. Can it?

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Replying to Tax Dragon:
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By Wanderer
08th Jan 2021 07:27

Nope, informal procedure can never be done online. But if you use the online system to get access to the deceased's SA account, in the way I have described, then HMRC take that as sufficient authority when you write in to settle the estate liability under the informal payment procedures. (In the OP's case, as they already have a paper 64-8, I'd probably include that as well under a belt & braces approach.)

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By CardiffAccountant
13th Jan 2021 19:47

Hi.

I did this only a few months ago.

I contacted HMRC and advised of the death. Immediately, the client was removed from my agent account.

I then had a new 64-8 signed by the client’s widow (also executor), using same UTR. Placed widow’s details on the form.

I then sent the form along with a copy of the death certificate, the will and a covering letter explaining what we wanted.

Within a week or so, my agency was re-authorised to act on behalf of the client/widow.

I then completed an SA100 as normal, submitted it and as it happens, gained a tax refund (client had fully paid the POAs) for his widow.

All very straightforward, but very sad as I particularly liked the client.

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By JoandToby
13th Jan 2021 21:08

Thank you so much, yes it is very sad too, i agree

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By Clare Beazley
14th Jan 2021 12:59

Just to add to based on my recent experience, though only with relation to HMRC references. My mother died in Sept and I am doing the estate myself. Her 2019/20 was already finalised at the time of her death. Under "Tell her once" I received a letter from HMRC within 2 weeks of death with a paper tax return to complete for 2020/21. The UTR is the same as for when she was alive. IE you do not need/get a new UTR for the deceased. However, the executors DO need to apply to HMRC for an IHT reference number if the estate falls to be reported to HMRC for IHT purposes.

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Replying to Clare Beazley:
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By Wanderer
14th Jan 2021 18:48

And also a new UTR for the Estate if an IT or CGT liability arises for the period of administration which can't be dealt with under the simplified procedures.

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Replying to Wanderer:
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By Clare Beazley
15th Jan 2021 16:08

Yes agree, though that is further down the line once probate has been received and the estate income known. I have all that fun and the R185s to look forward to. I do find it strange that as an an individual administering an estate, I have to everything with HMRC by paper.

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Replying to Clare Beazley:
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By Wanderer
15th Jan 2021 16:29

Just so you now you can, in fact, complete the final tax return for the period 6 April to the date of death online, provided you wait until after 5 April next. This is my preferred method as it takes the manual element of HMRC out of the processing.

Subsequent Estate returns can also, of course, be completed online.

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Replying to Wanderer:
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By Clare Beazley
18th Jan 2021 15:34

True, but then you have to wait until after 5 April. The income tax figure is needed for IHT , so that's great if the person died near the end of the tax year but adds in several month's delay if not.
Case in point: My Mother died in September. The income tax liability was agreed with HMRC at the end of December enabling me to apply for probate in January.

I really don't understand why HMRC don't have an "executor portal" where you submit the tax return for the year of death as well as IHT forms. It would be so much easier. I'm guessing other priorities and possible changes to IHT are the reasons why not. Shame though.

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Replying to Clare Beazley:
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By Wanderer
18th Jan 2021 16:33

You don't need to submit the final IT return nor agree it with HMRC to apply for probate. You can just calculate & include the IT liability in the IHT calculations. There is no need for any delay whatsoever on this point.

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By CardiffAccountant
18th Jan 2021 17:02

Just a quick update.

The refund for the widow arrived this morning.

Having deducted my fee (£35.00 - client had already paid much of his costs up front), transferred the balance to his widow.

All sorted.

Found the whole process reasonably straight-forward, even if it did take a little longer than expected; though I guess COVID does not help.

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