Accountants practising without practising cert.

In my area I know of two newly qualified undertaking work without P.C.

Didn't find your answer?

More of a rant than a question. I consider that I have good client retention but recently I have lost two clients in rapid succession. I did not receive any communication from new agent. I have made enquiries amongst other accountants in the area and they too have had same experience. It seems that two Chartered Accountants who qualified in May last year are now operating through Facebook using their partners names. They are actively contacting people through social media and  offering ridiculously low fees. Both C.A's are working in commercial firms. One  ex client who I am still friends with  happily tells me all about them. Apparently one earns £58k as a newly qualified in the North East  so obviously somebody very talented or a fantasist. I know that this sounds like sour grapes but I can remember how hard people worked to get P.C. in my own case earning less than I could have done in a commercial post. So tempting to report them but I would hate to ruin two young lives.

 

Replies (43)

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By ireallyshouldknowthisbut
05th Sep 2020 19:02

Id dob 'em in personally.

It discredits the profession when people are claiming chartered status they are not entitled too.

They will probably just get a fine unless they lie about it and quite frankly need to grow up and act responsibly.

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Replying to ireallyshouldknowthisbut:
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By Anonymous.
05th Sep 2020 13:03

Quote:

In dob 'em in personally.

It discredits the profession when people are claiming chartered status they are not entitled too.

They will probably just get a fine unless they lie about it and quite frankly need to grow up and act responsibly.

Me too! The profession doesn't need (more) cowboys.

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By paul.benny
05th Sep 2020 13:50

+1 to reporting them.

As for 'ruining young lives' - they're old enough to know what they are doing is wrong. And how many lives might they ruin as a result of their work?

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Replying to paul.benny:
Psycho
By Wilson Philips
05th Sep 2020 14:04

+1

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RLI
By lionofludesch
05th Sep 2020 14:20

Me too.

They know what they're doing.

And the risk that they might ruin their lives.

No sympathy from me.

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By insolventnl
05th Sep 2020 15:45

Why would a qualified Accountant not just wait to get their PC. If they have done the hard work to become an Accountant then just wait another 1-2 month to get the PC?

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Replying to insolventnl:
RLI
By lionofludesch
05th Sep 2020 16:01

Quote:

Why would a qualified Accountant not just wait to get their PC. If they have done the hard work to become an Accountant then just wait another 1-2 month to get the PC?

1-2 months? It took 3 years of post qualification experience to get mine.

With inflation, that must be 6 or 7 years these days.

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Replying to lionofludesch:
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By Paul Crowley
05th Sep 2020 16:11

Other organisations with different rules are available.
Work done getting qualified counts

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By Paul Crowley
05th Sep 2020 16:07

If you are ICAEW you are required to report to ICAEW if they are ICAEW

If in doubt phone the ethics helpline.
Never dobbed yet but but every time I have phoned the ICAEW ethics line I get the same answer,'you need to take legal advice'. On this question, might finally get a yes no definitive answer.

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Replying to Paul Crowley:
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By paul.benny
05th Sep 2020 17:22

That's a very good point.

You have a duty to report misconduct. Guidance here:
https://www.icaew.com/regulation/complaints-process/your-duty-to-report-...

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Replying to paul.benny:
David Winch
By David Winch
06th Sep 2020 11:28

Paul
I'm not convinced that the misconduct alleged here gives rise to a DUTY to report, but there is certainly a right to report.
David

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Replying to davidwinch:
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By paul.benny
07th Sep 2020 14:25

David - have another look at the guidance. There absolutely is a duty to report

Para 4 - "Disciplinary Bye-laws 9.1 and 9.2 provide that,
'It shall be the duty of every member where it is in the public interest to do so to report any facts or matters indicating that a member and/or firm or provisional member may have become liable to disciplinary action"

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Replying to paul.benny:
David Winch
By David Winch
07th Sep 2020 15:39

The guidance sets out at some length when it is "in the public interest" to report. No mention of practicising without a PC.

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By Anonymous.
05th Sep 2020 16:58

Quote:

They are actively contacting people through social media and  offering ridiculously low fees. ... one earns £58k as a newly qualified in the North East

Not sure why someone earning that amount as a NQ would want to do a sideline to earn buttons but, as we all seem to agree, they shouldn't be doing it.

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Replying to Anonymous.:
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By johnjenkins
08th Sep 2020 10:06

Get em in then put charges up. I would assume that they are trying to build up a business so that they can eventually leave the company they are working for.
Good marketing ploy if they manage to survive. I wonder how many Accountants working in companies do work "on the side" (I'm not saying they don't declare the income).
Ethics don't come into it. It's purely commercial.
OK standby for a blast. We had the twenties, the sixties, the eighties, all driven by youth. We now have the 2020's. The seeds are already there for all to see. Be prepared for immense growth and different strategies in the next few years.
Covid has wiped out many elderly, the shackles of the EU have been removed, MTD is making many Accountants and business people of a certain age think about whether they want to carry on, even retire. So the youngsters will have a clear path in front of them. Citin times.

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Replying to johnjenkins:
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By Rgab1947
08th Sep 2020 10:18

Hey, I am still alive. Don't write us off yet.

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Replying to Rgab1947:
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By johnjenkins
08th Sep 2020 11:37

Sorry, I do get carried away with my own enthusiasm sometimes.

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By Matrix
05th Sep 2020 17:58

Sorry if I am missing something but how do you know they don’t have a PC?

When you search Find a Chartered Accountant on the site, does it only include accountants with a PC? If so, I never really thought about this before.

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Replying to Matrix:
Psycho
By Wilson Philips
05th Sep 2020 18:10

No - but it tells you whether or not the member holds a PC

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Replying to Wilson Philips:
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By Paul Crowley
05th Sep 2020 19:38

Correcct
ICAEW want reports on dishonest members.
Fines are critical to the economic model

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Replying to Wilson Philips:
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By Matrix
05th Sep 2020 22:23

Oh yes if you search by name. But if you put the location in the search box it only gives you firms.

I didn’t know they had websites and email addresses listed for us now, very progressive.

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By Paul Crowley
05th Sep 2020 19:40

Good idea to remain unknown
Otherwise I have to dob you for not dobbing them

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By frankfx
06th Sep 2020 00:04

You have a duty to report.

Report.

Inform ethics team that you have discussed matter with other Members in locality.

Then sit back and see if professional standards, contact other Members asking why they stood by and stared.

Please let us know if you do in fact report.
We'll accept your word.

Then look out for the First Wednesday in the month disciplinary reports.

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By lesley.barnes
06th Sep 2020 09:11

Could these people be seeking to get round their professional bodies rules about PC's. The op mentions that they are advertising through Facebook using their partners names, could they be their partners "employees" or acting as a "consultant" to their partners businesses. I know this is very unlikely to be the truth and shows that they are looking for ways round getting a practice certificate. They might get away with it, we don't know which body it is so don't know what the line is if they are not the principle of the business. I agree with the others you still need to report them.

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Replying to lesley.barnes:
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By Paul Crowley
06th Sep 2020 12:04

Using partners names would be a dead giveaway that what they are doing is deliberate and concealed

Seem to remember that term used for some other purpose

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Slim
By Slim
06th Sep 2020 19:09

It's been known for the ACCA to bend the rules and give PC to ACCA members who have been caught trading without one.

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By Ken Howard
06th Sep 2020 19:53

Accountants "hiding behind" their spouse has been common for years. It's not just small one-man band part time work either - there have been some pretty big firms in the name of a spouse but in reality operated by a CCAB qualified accountant without a PC.

But that's not all. We have a pretty big firm of "accountants" in our town. Run by a woman without an accountancy qualification, but who has had a succession of employees who were qualified with a PC who she'd get to "sign off" the accounts/references when required by banks, building societies, etc. They never last more than a couple of years. I don't think she tells them until they're in situ what she wants them to do and then pressurises them to do the certificates, which prompts them to move on asap! In the job adverts, she specifies they must be CCAB qualified with a PC!

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Replying to Ken Howard:
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By Paul Crowley
06th Sep 2020 20:23

I habitually check accountants at companies house when a client chooses to depart.
I concur, regular the company is run by a non accountant, despite having others who are qualified in their system.
But not yet come across an ICAEW.

BUT the sampling pool that I am using is very small, so no valid statistical relevance

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By Harsh
07th Sep 2020 15:26

Please report them. I don't pay my annual PC fees and all the rest that goes with it for fun. Of course they can offer ridiculous fees with zero overheads. You owe it to the profession to report them!

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Replying to Harsh:
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By frankfx
07th Sep 2020 15:42

Quote:

Please report them. I don't pay my annual PC fees and all the rest that goes with it for fun. Of course they can offer ridiculous fees with zero overheads. You owe it to the profession to report them!

Not just the profession, their present employer would be keen to know.

You can bet that company time and resources are being used to support a zero overhead employee side business.
Time costs "lost " booked to employer client, could be deemed dishonest conduct for starters.

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By ABD
08th Sep 2020 09:40

you could report them for not requesting professional clearance, the rest would be up to the icaew

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By kssco
08th Sep 2020 09:49

I agree with everyone who says that you have a duty to report them, so do it now. Something quite critical here is the distinct likelihood that they or their partners don't have PI insurance and are thus putting their clients at risk. This compounds their offence, to say nothing of CPD compliance or ethical behaviour.

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By Rgab1947
08th Sep 2020 10:22

Phone their bosses and have a nice chat asking for pointers how they can offer such low fees through Facebook.

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By jon_griffey
08th Sep 2020 10:23

Can you do this anonymously though? I was told by the ACCA monitoring officer many years ago, that they could only investigate this sort of thing if they received a formal complaint, rather than a tip off. By making a formal complaint, the offending party would see who the complainant was, which if they are local you might not really want.

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By dmmarler
08th Sep 2020 10:49

Yes, please report them. All professional bodies take a dim view of people operating without practicing certificates, without professional indemnity insurance, without letters of engagement, without due diligence for Money Laundering purposes, etc. Their employers will also be infinitely upset as client poaching could occur (GDPR breaches?), yet alone loss of attention to their clients' business by moonlighting with their respective partners. OK, the business is being organised through their respective partners, but this is a sham. We do not want people who are going to bring the profession into disrepute as it reflects badly on all qualified accountants. However, our professional bodies should also spend more on educating the public as to why they should only use a qualified accountant with a practising certificate.

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By hfiddes
08th Sep 2020 10:57

Many moons ago, our (large) firm's IT support found invoices on an employee's computer. They reported it up their line of command - not because they knew our professional rules but because there wasn't supposed to be any data still on the PC before upgrade. The upshot was, the firm found out that he had a business on the side which he was running in breach of ICAEW rules as well as his contract of employment. It was instant dismissal for gross misconduct and a report to the ICAEW.
Its +1 from me too.

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By Philipbwood
08th Sep 2020 10:58

I'm not sure why the question is being asked
1 They are breaking the rules
2 You and your family have lost income as a direct result of that
REPORT and do not worry about being anonymous - or name them and all their details on here and let us all report them for you!

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By indomitable
08th Sep 2020 11:30

No brainer, yes report them! Also not use on the PI insurance position here, you are doing their clients a favour

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By brumsub
08th Sep 2020 11:47

I don’t know what the rules are today but I had to demonstrate, and have, at least 3 years RELEVANT practical experience which also had to be signed off by a principal of a firm before I was granted a practising certificate.

The rules are there to be followed and to maintain standards, otherwise there will be a free for all. So yes, report them.

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By asillahi
08th Sep 2020 13:12

We work hard to qualify and to do things properly. It also costs us money to do things properly and to get a PC so why would you feel sorry for them? They are knowingly flouting the rules with no respect for the rules or the rest of us who bend over backwards to do things by the book. I urge you to screw them.

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By Michael Davies
08th Sep 2020 14:27

MTD gave me good cause to start closing down.I did think at the time we would be well into it by now,so I was a bit premature.The result was that I started gently moving clients on a couple of years ago,however I have not received one Professional Clearance letter.TBF the holding information I provide the leavers is sufficient for the new Agent to crack on;however out of common courtesy a clearances letter would not have gone amiss.

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Replying to Michael Davies:
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By Dib
08th Sep 2020 16:02

I suspect that courtesy is less common than it used to be!

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Replying to Dib:
RLI
By lionofludesch
08th Sep 2020 16:17

It is.

Though I often wonder how accountants carry out their work without carrying figures or pool balances.

Badly, I suppose.

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