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Accounting Web - What is happening?

Accounting Web - What is happening?

We seem to have longstanding members leaving and the reaction from Sift seems to be to wave them goodbye rather than address the underlying issues.

The atmosphere around here no longer feels like the community it once was (and I’m a relatively new member). Whilst members will always come and go, it’s unpleasant to see regular members go when the issues should be addressed.

It’s not like Sift are unaware of the issues as they are raised frequently.

To the probable disappointment of J Cresswell, it isn’t yet time for me to hang up my AWeb boots – but I have thought about it.

Question for Sift – Do you plan on addressing the issues or are you going to continue to ignore them?

Replies

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29th Jul 2015 09:34

You are not alone

If there was a viable alternative I would jump ship today. I will be keeping a look out for one.

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29th Jul 2015 09:37

I'm telling you

'Ignore user', gets rid of the nasty posts, leaves the advice.  Ok, so the occasional overlap between the users who spit venom but sometimes deign to actually give advice means you will lose some advice, but it's a lots less that you'd think!

Come join me, I have cookies... Or block me, I don't advise as much as I used to (but then I try not to take the floorboards up either).

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29th Jul 2015 09:42

MrMe

For once I am going to agree with you!

It isn't what it once was and it is very disappointing.

My half hour morning read has now become 10 minute as the content just isn't there in any answers anymore.

The site is a shadow of its former self :(

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29th Jul 2015 09:41

Come back, Henry

There were far more trolling and abuse problems in Henry's time, but at least Henry took the time and trouble to explain what he was doing, and why.

EDIT: and he responded to enquiries and reports!

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By BKD
29th Jul 2015 09:43

I'm with Andy

I took a self-imposed sabbatical last summer because the mood and bickering here was becoming utterly depressing. I returned in the hope that things would improve - which they did, for a time. But as others have observed, there is clearly visible dark cloud hanging over the site now. Much of the banter and general good feeling has simply disappeared.

I don't see any need to go down the "I'm leaving" route, but I suspect that my input is going to rapidly diminish. And if something better does come along ...

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29th Jul 2015 09:44

Quality of staff

You are right Shirley, the quality of staff is of upmost importance.

Without wanting to name names, I watched an IR35 webinar presented by accounting web.  The accounting web staff member had a nightmare, he even referred to the subject as IR25!

Maybe webinars wasn't his thing, but such poor standards for a senior member of staff can only be passed down to lower grades and new starts.

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29th Jul 2015 09:51

Sorry chaps, but why is this thread helping?

Why did the long on yesterday - so someone had a typo and spelt em instead of me - generate so much interest in slagging off Aweb?

Or one about "nuclear option".

 

It's starting to look like a school playground.

 

Why don't we all just get naked and make up?!

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29th Jul 2015 10:24

Another beautiful example

This morning I wrote an explanation of my very short post yesterday on the 'nuclear option' thread. It included an apology to a member who in the cold light of day appeared to be a 'victim' of my ire.

Guess what - it's not there. Usurped by John S's.

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By mwngiol
29th Jul 2015 10:03

Downturn

Agreed it's not what it was.

Where I disagree is that I don't think Sift are to blame but overly aggressive, insulting and at times abusive and threatening behaviour by certain members.

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By mrme89
29th Jul 2015 10:07

But

mwngiol wrote:

Agreed it's not what it was.

Where I disagree is that I don't think Sift are to blame but overly aggressive, insulting and at times abusive and threatening behaviour by certain members.

 

Isn't the answer for Sift to deal with these members and nip it in the bud?

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By mrme89
29th Jul 2015 10:05

Who is it helping.

Hopefully if some of us bang the drum long enough, the issues will eventually get resolved.

 

If the issues get resolved and the black cloud disappears, I think it will benefit all AWeb members.

 

Continuing to ignore the problem and put up with the atmosphere will just lead to more members leaving the site.

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29th Jul 2015 10:20

.

I have been a member over 10 years and this type of thread seems to appear at least every 3 months.

People come and people go, the main change I see is it is less formal than it once was which I think does rub up the wrong way some of our more technical contributors.

The summer is also a time when, people are way and others are working all hours as they are the only on in the office. 

 

 

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29th Jul 2015 10:22

Balance

There has been a remarkable shift in the balance of the site in recent times.

Generally we all rubbed along well, there was bonhomie and a couple of pantomime villains whom, apart from a few dark moments, we were united in booing. There was also healthy support from really talented practitioners.

Contrast that with now. Lots of dumbed-down trivia (often Sift-led), lots of questions from non-accountants looking to escape accountancy fees - Sift welcomes them, but dare not admit it and members can not agree whether they should help or not, which creates and adds to friction.

Light banter gets moderated when vicious attacks go free, no explanations for the inconsistency given.

Older members know that standards have slipped, whereas newer ones don't understand the fuss because their expectations are different. As time goes on there will be fewer and fewer older members, so their concerns will matter even less than they do today.

 

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29th Jul 2015 10:31

Send me your comment, Andy, and we'll add it to the other thread

I've made my point on the "nuclear" thread, which if I can remind people was already on dodgy ground as a public discussion of our moderation policy. What Andy doesn't mention is that rather than monopolise Any Answers with inward-looking gripes and swipes, I have started a new thread in our feedback discussion group to try and collect and respond to constructive suggestions.   

I have to confess to some exasperation that AccountingWEB itself has become the burning topic of the day, this thread for the moment raises some legitimate concerns, so I'll try to answer them.

We have had some public announcements of departures from the site for different reasons, which people take as a sign of a wider malaise in the site (loss of community vibe, outsiders coming in and posting comments, poor moderation, personal animosities, spam attacks, etc).

We care about all of these issues but don't have any instant solutions. Henry left more than two years ago to study for an MSc, so I don't think we'll be getting him back. People complain about our resourcing, but we now have two dedicated community assistants (Richard and Francois), supported by the Sift Media community management team lead by Dan Izzard. I think it's particularly unfair to pour vitrol on Richard and Francois's heads - they're not to blame for any deterioration and are doing their best to learn about the AccountingWEB community and the interests and thoughts of its members.

As well as feedback about our service, the topics that are discussed do feed into our content plans and if there is any shortcoming in the quality of what the AccountingWEB team posts on the site is my responsibility. Again, there are plans in hand to expand the team with more specialist contributors and editors, but experienced people in this market are hard to find. Please accept my promise that aside from addressing the overall community mood (and spam attacks), our content output and overall user experience are at the very top of my agenda.

Everything that happens on this site is driven by users - we can't actually force people to come to the site so the only thing that keeps them coming back is if what they find is relevant, useful and entertaining. Of course I'm concerned about the comments that the site is failing some people on this score, but we can't actually stop them going back either. While it's sad to see longstanding members turn their backs on the site, we will take on board the comments that have been made and do what we can to find solutions to the points raised so that AccountingWEB continues to be a useful resource for the 100k+ registered members who use it.

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By BKD
29th Jul 2015 10:59

Perhaps, Andy ...

... and I do say this with my tongue loosely lodged in my cheek - part of the problem is the absence of the 'pantomime villain'. When we had to repeatedly deal with unwelcome insurgents perhaps that instilled some of the blitz spirit in us. With such miscreants much less visible perhaps it is simply the nature of internet forums that without a common target to deal with we tend to find other targets when we find ourselves, unwittingly or otherwise, with a need to let off some steam. I'll be the first to admit that I can be overly blunt - bordering on rude - at times, and I probably do sometimes 'speak' to others here in a manner that I wouldn't do face to face.

So, here's my mid-year resolution - to steer well clear of, and ignore, freeloaders and alleged accountants asking idiotic questions. Never more will I have to post "Ask your accountant".

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29th Jul 2015 11:10

@ BKD

BKD wrote:

... and I do say this with my tongue loosely lodged in my cheek - part of the problem is the absence of the 'pantomime villain'. When we had to repeatedly deal with unwelcome insurgents perhaps that instilled some of the blitz spirit in us. With such miscreants much less visible perhaps it is simply the nature of internet forums that without a common target to deal with we tend to find other targets when we find ourselves, unwittingly or otherwise, with a need to let off some steam. I'll be the first to admit that I can be overly blunt - bordering on rude - at times, and I probably do sometimes 'speak' to others here in a manner that I wouldn't do face to face.

So, here's my mid-year resolution - to steer well clear of, and ignore, freeloaders and alleged accountants asking idiotic questions. Never more will I have to post "Ask your accountant".


Good points, I think. I am waiting for a response of 'Ask your accountant' to a question of mine. Then I will know it really is time to bow out.
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By NH
29th Jul 2015 10:59

I partly agree

John, I partly agree with you that the content is driven by users.  I am not sure what others expect from the site and no one is forced to continue reading a thread, or to continue posting.

But I think there are two seperate issues.  Any Answers and the general news content

Firstly, within Any Answers, there are technical questions posed by fellow professionals that are for the most part answered in a professional manner.  This is very helpful to all concerned.

There are also questions posed by non professionals, often who have no knowledge of accountancy.  These are usually responded to in a rude, arrogant and downright nasty manner by many in the "community" who seem to feel that an open forum should only be used by fellow professionals.  These individuals would never dream of speaking that way face to face but feel that a keyboard and screen gives them free licence.

Added to this there are non-accountants who post answers to questions on AE for example that clearly have their own agenda, and I can only describe them as accountant haters!  I have recently seen these argumental threads going on and on and on with no hope of ever resolving the dispute.

Surely these last two types of threads should either be shut down as soon as it becomes clear that someone is being insulting, and those users who have been insulting should be warned that if they do that again they will be banned.  This is the job of the MOD is it not?

The second issue of the general news content I would leave others to comment on.

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29th Jul 2015 11:18

New members

Why doesn't Aweb simply introduce a period of time when new members cannot post questions.  This would limit the dumbing down Any Answers.

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29th Jul 2015 11:22

In all honesty Andy

I do not remember when you last asked a meaningful question or provided a meaningful response. You seem to me to have just become a whining noise. Just saying, while we are all being so honest and open.

All that ever happens seems to be debate for debate's sake, which I do not think can be blamed on Sift.

Perhaps the membership is generally just a more miserable bunch than they used to be "back in the day". :)

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29th Jul 2015 11:31

A bit harsh

Portia Nina Levin wrote:

I do not remember when you last asked a meaningful question or provided a meaningful response. You seem to me to have just become a whining noise. Just saying, while we are all being so honest and open.

 

You may have just become a victim of your own criticism. Never mind, in the words of the mod team, 'we value all contributions'.

Edit - belatedly I realise you must have thought that I had been of some use in the past. That's a compliment I can take to the grave.

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29th Jul 2015 11:25

Nice edit!
:)

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By NH
29th Jul 2015 11:31

the report option?

John - out of interest what happens when you report a post?

Say for example, someone was unhelpful or rude and I reported it?

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By Fizzy
29th Jul 2015 11:37

@ NH

Nothing. You'll get no response or acknowledgement. But they do value your input. No really they do. And if you have any concerns you can always PM... Oh no, hang on, that will be ignored too. 

Unless of course you're AWeb's favourite member in which case they'll jump instantly and reprimand everyone in the vicinity. And delete the entire thread. 

 

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29th Jul 2015 11:59

Communities need to self-police

Hi all

I think there are 2 issues here:

Contributors to AccountingWeb discussions are very often belligerent, rude and wish to continue posting to threads ad-naseum, each trying to prove they are "right" and someone/everyone else is "wrong". This behaviour would not persist in the real world and is not Aweb's fault.The Aweb community platform is now showing its age and might not be fit for purpose until it gets a major revamp. A more modern platform is needed: one based on a trust system which means, as members become trusted regulars over time, they earn abilities to help maintain their community.There should be a community moderation system that allows the community to suppress spam and dangerous content, and lets members amicably resolve disputes on their own. Use of badges can encourage positive community behaviour. The current platform was not designed for this.

Of course, the problem with 2. is that Aweb is a commercial organisation and wishes to maintain control of its content. There will therefore always be a tension when users are looking for a democratic, independent community.

Adrian

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By Glennzy
29th Jul 2015 12:32

What Have I Missed

I took a weeks holiday last week and seem to have missed something. Who are the droves of members that have left recently? The recent Any Answers page have been weak but I assumed that was because its now school holidays and people were off enjoying themselves so things got a little slow. The lack of quality on the any answers page cannot be blamed on AWEB. As for the spam attacks a lot of bigger companies than Sift have been hit worse than them and its something that just has to be dealt with when it happens. AWEB has a huge amount of members many of which only view and don't contribute, I am assuming this is down to a number of reasons one of which will be fear of been hammered by others if they are wrong.

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By Fizzy
29th Jul 2015 12:48

Thousands of members

I wonder, of the supposed thousands of members that AWeb has, how many have created logins to look up answers once (I think I'm right that you can't see content of the individual answers unless you have a login) and never been back since? And how many (hopefully a lot less than the first category) are duplicates, or maybe second accounts where people couldn't remember their original logins? I bet that the number of people who use the site on a more regular basis (i.e. not occasional, rare users), even if they never post, is actually pretty small. And the number who post regularly is positively miniscule. 

So when Aweb claim that only a few members complain, what they really mean is that a high proportion of regular users aren't happy but they can pretend that it's a tiny percentage by including people who have forgotten AWeb's existence. Manipulation of figures is a great way of drawing your preferred conclusion. It's a bit like claiming that 90% of voters polled thought that David Cameron is the best PM ever, without mentioning that the poll was only of 10 people who had just been treated to a slap up dinner by Mr C and the one who voted against had just dropped his hearing aid in his wine and thought he was being asked if he wanted a third helping of pudding.

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29th Jul 2015 13:21

@Fizzy - way out of line

Fizzy wrote:

So when Aweb claim that only a few members complain, what they really mean is that a high proportion of regular users aren't happy but they can pretend that it's a tiny percentage by including people who have forgotten AWeb's existence. Manipulation of figures is a great way of drawing your preferred conclusion. It's a bit like claiming that 90% of voters polled thought that David Cameron is the best PM ever, without mentioning that the poll was only of 10 people who had just been treated to a slap up dinner by Mr C and the one who voted against had just dropped his hearing aid in his wine and thought he was being asked if he wanted a third helping of pudding.

Where did that come from? No one associated with AccountingWEB has ever said anything like that.

Like you we are aware of the recent spate of complaints and public departures. We have acknowledged them in public and taken the messages on board. When I have quoted numbers, it was to contrast the suggestion that 200 or so people make everything happen on the site by referring to the wider population of registered members who also use the site.

You're no longer making any kind of fair comment, but are impugning our reputation based on assertions that you have made up yourself. That's the kind of behaviour that is attracting all the complaints, so please think twice before accusing someone of manipulating figures.

@NH - back in the real world, when a Report is made, it is logged in our content management system, where one of the community team will pick it up and deal with it. Sometimes this does not happen instantaneously and when there are particularly big outbreaks, it can be a struggle to stay on top of the volume. As many members know we also have an automated system that attempts to cut spammers off before they can post. But it doesn't catch everything. For example there was an outbreak of unpleasant blog posts that were reported at 3am this morning. They were dealt with by 7am.

BTW - thanks for your previous supportive comments. We take feedback from all our users very seriously and will continue to do our best to keep as many AccountingWEB members satisfied as we can.

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29th Jul 2015 14:10

Out of touch

John Stokdyk wrote:

@NH - back in the real world, when a Report is made, it is logged in our content management system, where one of the community team will pick it up and deal with it. Sometimes this does not happen instantaneously and when there are particularly big outbreaks, it can be a struggle to stay on top of the volume. As many members know we also have an automated system that attempts to cut spammers off before they can post. But it doesn't catch everything. For example there was an outbreak of unpleasant blog posts that were reported at 3am this morning. They were dealt with by 7am.

I think you are a little out of touch, John.

Myself, and others, have been complaining about the lack of feedback/responses to reports & PM's to mods for months, Possibly longer than a year. That particular problem may have been exacerbated by the spam attack, but it can't all be put down to big outbreaks.

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29th Jul 2015 12:50

Oh come on ....

I love you all.... #justsayin'

xxxx

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29th Jul 2015 14:14

Mmm

landscaper wrote:

I love you all.... #justsayin'

xxxx

I love you too full English breakfast xxx

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29th Jul 2015 15:58

There is no point in taking this further

Aweb and its members both have totally different views.

If this was a marriage, it would be approaching the separation stage shortly....

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29th Jul 2015 16:42

I need Aweb probably more than it needs me

I need the technical expertise of other members and I can't find that as readily anywhere else. I have so much more to learn, so I shall not be leaving.

I also like the support that others have given me in my hour of need.

I don't like the unpleasant remarks that I see regularly but do accept that bullies exist even on Aweb and it's best to ignore them. I can't work out how they can be moderated out. I would like them moderated out in the real world, but that's not going to happen.

I think the community feeling comes from a group of people who get on with each other and regularly post on here. In time I assume new people will help generate that cohesion. We will inevitably have peaks and troughs.

The articles posted by SIFT quite often irritate me beyond the pale, but as long as I don't spend too much time reading them I can cope. Nothing's perfect.

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29th Jul 2015 16:44

Who cares what you think! :)

Moonbeam wrote:

I need the technical expertise of other members and I can't find that as readily anywhere else. I have so much more to learn, so I shall not be leaving.

I also like the support that others have given me in my hour of need.

I don't like the unpleasant remarks that I see regularly but do accept that bullies exist even on Aweb and it's best to ignore them. I can't work out how they can be moderated out. I would like them moderated out in the real world, but that's not going to happen.

I think the community feeling comes from a group of people who get on with each other and regularly post on here. In time I assume new people will help generate that cohesion. We will inevitably have peaks and troughs.

The articles posted by SIFT quite often irritate me beyond the pale, but as long as I don't spend too much time reading them I can cope. Nothing's perfect.

Actually, on reflection, some good points, well made.

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By NH
29th Jul 2015 16:47

@Moonbeam

Well said, no more comment needed, thread closed

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29th Jul 2015 17:52

Quality

The quality of the community is dependent on the people in it. 

I do not think AW is anywhere near its sell by date. Like anything else, it has some downsides. These, for me, are outweighed by the many positives. 

I think Moonbeam is spot on. 

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29th Jul 2015 20:19

I must have missed something!

I log in every day and have not seen anything offensive or aggressive.  Having said that, my first use of internet forums was for sharp sports betting back in 2002 so I suppose I am used to environments which are much more hostile and aggressive than anything I have seen on here since I joined in 2009 or 2010.

Maybe a few folks need a couple of weeks on holiday to get some perspective.  Maybe join an internet forum on something like sports betting or share investment or day trading to see what REAL hostility and vitriol is!

 

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29th Jul 2015 20:33

Lucky

mr. mischief wrote:

I log in every day and have not seen anything offensive or aggressive.  Having said that, my first use of internet forums was for sharp sports betting back in 2002 so I suppose I am used to environments which are much more hostile and aggressive than anything I have seen on here since I joined in 2009 or 2010.

Maybe a few folks need a couple of weeks on holiday to get some perspective.  Maybe join an internet forum on something like sports betting or share investment or day trading to see what REAL hostility and vitriol is!

 

You must have only been in topics no-one has replied to, or you have managed to avoid topics that didn't degenerate into the same tired AW bashing. Kudos! You should play the lottery!

I've seen plenty worse elsewhere, but the venomous people here are supposed to be professional and courteous, which makes it worse.

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29th Jul 2015 21:21

Manipulation?

I don't think SIFT are guilty of manipulation but more likely being selective with numbers.

If there are 500 active members but 50,000 "members" - many of whom have posted once asking for free advice which can't be easily answered without a proper meeting with either a new accountant or having an accountant for a reasonable period of time - then SIFT will want to concentrate on and encourage the bigger number to increase so they can get more advertising. The smaller number may be what's important to improve the community feel but it's not going to help the financials. 

Unfortunately, over time if the active members are not nurtured then the site will stagnate and the "members" will stop increasing too.

Personally, I don't mind answering simple questions from people who want free advice but quite often a forum such as this is not the place to get quality advice given the limitations on knowledge of the OPs situation.

It's more likely that the "active members" will be the one's who buy from advertisers so I would have thought that advertisers would wanted detailed information on the site activity.

I'm not sure that it's very easy for a site owner to make a dramatic impact in the quality of the site.

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29th Jul 2015 21:52

Agreed, Peter, regarding active members

Unfortunately, over time if the active members are not nurtured then the site will stagnate and the "members" will stop increasing too.

Additional comments from members ....

I need the technical expertise of other members and I can't find that as readily anywhere else. I have so much more to learn, so I shall not be leaving.

I also like the support that others have given me in my hour of need.

The quality of the community is dependent on the people in it. 

And members, just like our clients, will go if they feel unwanted and ignored ... as in reports and PM's being ignored, with no explanations. We get heavy handed moderation or the other extreme ... no moderation. Again, no explanations, just platitudes without any subsequent action.

I am sorry to keep banging on about this, but it is because I care what happens and would hate to see AWeb wither and die. AWeb is unique, but is losing it's appeal. Maybe the ones who care are the ones who put in reports, and get ignored. Maybe those who don't see a problem have never submitted a report or PM, or been ignored. I don't know for sure. I am just speculating. I think few people would appreciate being ignored. A response, even one containing a disagreement, would at least assure the person that their views have been heard.

All practice owners know you need to interact with your customers/clients to get a good rapport, a good relationship, and loyalty ... and also not to make false promises. Promises should be delivered, else the trust goes.

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01st Aug 2015 10:15

I wonder if Sift staff post 'thanks' in support of their colleagues? If they do that would distort the 'mood' of the issue - a bit like members having multiple accounts posting agreement with themselves. Come on Sift, what's the policy?

I'm not accusing, just asking . . .

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01st Aug 2015 10:35

Thanks
I wish we did, Andy! But as you can see, no one ever thanks me. (Hint: Go on, give me a thanks. If for nothing else, do it because it's the weekend.)
In all honesty, there's been no incestrous thanking from the Sift team.

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01st Aug 2015 11:03

Tempted

Richard Hattersley wrote:
I wish we did, Andy! But as you can see, no one ever thanks me. (Hint: Go on, give me a thanks. If for nothing else, do it because it's the weekend.) In all honesty, there's been no incestrous thanking from the Sift team.

I can see you already have a burgeoning fan club and I would hate it to go to your head. Thanks for your reassurance.
 

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By F1 fan
02nd Aug 2015 14:56

Praise for AWeb

Accounting Web is brilliant for those of us with limited experience to be able to ask advice from very experienced members.  I keep recommending the site to all my friends and colleagues who have an interest in accounting issues.  Although I have suffered very rude responses from some experienced members in the past, I have also received valuable advice.  l am very grateful that busy professionals are prepared to take the time to help people they have never met, without any reward.  

 

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03rd Aug 2015 10:30

To be fair

You are actually praising the regular contributors to any answers there, rather than accounting web itself.

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03rd Aug 2015 10:49

if something better does come along ...

Hi all

Reading this thread it seemed clear to me that some would like an alternative peer to peer forum to use. I have therefore created one. Send me a PM with your email address if you are interested and I will send you an invite.

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03rd Aug 2015 11:02

Snap

Adrian Pearson wrote:

Hi all

Reading this thread it seemed clear to me that some would like an alternative peer to peer forum to use. I have therefore created one. Send me a PM with your email address if you are interested and I will send you an invite.

 

I was thinking of doing the same and calling it notaccountingweb.

Will yours have proper border controls to keep the illegal immigrants out?

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03rd Aug 2015 11:10

Border controls

@mouse007 in a word, yes :)

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03rd Aug 2015 15:22

An alternative is on it way

We are just developing a new forum to go with our site www.rossmartin.co.uk. If you go and register for free news on our website you will get the details, or you can simply PM me and I will add you out our list.

As many of your know about us already, we provide a Virtual Tax Partner service with a mix of freeview news and subscriber content. We want to add to that experience by allowing a lot more user interaction and a managed user forum seems to be the way forward for us.

I have been put off this forum, as have so many because of the bickering, it alienates everyone. I used to be tax editor of this site back in 2008/09 and I tried very hard to clean up the forum then however you are always on a hiding to nothing because of the number of historic postings that re-appear so don't be hard on the current mods, it's not always easy.

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03rd Aug 2015 15:38

Site address

Hi all

Since it seems Nichola was OK to provide her URL, I can only assume I am OK to provide mine (I deliberately didn't do so the first time).

See www.accountingtalk.co.uk.

Its ONLY a forum for accountants. Not trying to be anything else. Addresses the main concerns raised in this thread:

For accountants only (not the public at large)Clear guidelines on civilised behaviourAnti-spam controls and self-moderation based on earned trust levels for regulars

Accounting Talk was created to help those asking for an alternative here but it is NOT an Accounting Web alternative, it's just a simple, clean, ad-free forum aimed at a specific audience.

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03rd Aug 2015 15:52

That's enough

As this thread demonstrates, we are willing to accept fair criticism from AccountingWEB members.

However we think that with the announcements of two alternative sites to cater for disaffected members that this thread has run its course. I will now close it to further comments.

If you do wish to offer feedback on AccountingWEB's membership and moderation policy, please feel free to do so in our feedback discussion group.

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