ACCOUNTS TO COMPANIES HOUSE

WHICH ACCOUNTS ARE BEST SENT TO COMPANIES HOUSE FOR A SMALLCOMPANY ABRIDGED or FILLETED

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Reviewing what is the best format of accounts should be sumbitted to Companies House for a Small Company whose main set of accounts have been prepared in draft underFRS 102 Section 1A

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By paulhammett
12th May 2021 18:42

Filleted. I’m not sure the concept of abridged accounts exists anymore.

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By Paul Crowley
12th May 2021 18:49

Agree that there is just one system
What the software calls it matters not a jot.

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Replying to Paul Crowley:
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By lionofludesch
13th May 2021 10:22

Quote:

Agree that there is just one system
What the software calls it matters not a jot.

Not sure what you two are saying here.

"Abridged" is still an option, though not a common one.

You're not thinking of the now defunct "Abbreviated", are you ?

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Replying to lionofludesch:
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By Paul Crowley
13th May 2021 13:19

I am saying that when filing to registrar the usual pattern is to remove the profit and loss. What the software calls it is irrelevant.

Iris used code ABB for abbreviated
Now uses code ABR for filleted

ABR clearly derived from Abridged

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By lionofludesch
13th May 2021 13:26

Iris clearly know nothing.

What's their abbreviation for abridged accounts?

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Replying to lionofludesch:
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By Paul Crowley
13th May 2021 14:46

Set up in Data sheets

If you remember the Abridged was the concession at the time and expected to be the filed accounts at companies house as the substitute for abbreviated.

The 'file accounts with no profit and loss' option was never intended. That was an afterthought when the uproar happened and the Accy bodies stuck together in opposition.

Once no P & L needed to be filed, the abridged version became superfluous.

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By lionofludesch
13th May 2021 15:04

Quote:

Once no P & L needed to be filed, the abridged version became superfluous.

Whilst I share Iris's comtempt for Abridged accounts, I would've thought that a software house of that standing ought to have made a bit more effort.

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panda ketteringUK
By ketteringUK
12th May 2021 18:51

Draft accounts should not be sent to the companies house.

Why do I sense that this might be a ripoff of professionally issued accounts that client wants to submit as their own??? DIY and FRS 102? Normally all DIY are 105 , usually without any disclosures , quite often full of errors

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Replying to ketteringUK:
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By Paul Crowley
12th May 2021 19:30

Good spot
I think you got it
Some firms operate pay before file

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RLI
By lionofludesch
12th May 2021 20:59

Abridged accounts have to be sent to everybody concerned if they're issued.

One format fits all.

Agree with Kett. Here's a fella who doesn't want to pay his bills.

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By DaveyJonesLocker
13th May 2021 05:35

*This comment has been moderated.*

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Replying to DaveyJonesLocker:
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By howard
13th May 2021 07:22

Hi We are not a 'fee dodger' as you call it we merely wish to know to keep down to the minimum the amount of accounts information on public record for our client who qualifies as a Small Company so the disclosures for a Micro Company do not apply and was looking for genuine helpful advice as to what the general view is for the general accountants out there.

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By lionofludesch
13th May 2021 07:40

Why anonymous then?

Why the mention of draft accounts?

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panda ketteringUK
By ketteringUK
13th May 2021 08:25

This seems to be a very strange question for somebody in the profession since 2013 looking at your question history.

Update to FRS 102 happened in 2017 if I recall correctly and since that time majority for majority of one man bands, subcontractors we recommend and prepare the accounts under frs105 where usually dividends and overdrawn DLA needs disclosing. For 'larger or growing' businesses we use 102 which looks more reputable in our opinion and therefore it creates better impression for perspective stakeholders (mortgage brokers, lenders, suppliers, etc)

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Replying to howard:
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By paul.benny
13th May 2021 09:12

Quote:
..we (were) looking for ...advice as to what the general view is for the general accountants out there.

Then why not say that in your question?

It's not a question of "best": the Companies Act and FRS102 specify what you must disclose and file.

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Replying to paul.benny:
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By howard
13th May 2021 09:19

Thanks for your new comments.
The point is as far as we can see you are required to submit slightly more detail to Companies House sending in Filleted accounts than you would do by preparing Abridged accounts albeit Filleted accounts are easier to produce with the software that we use.

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Replying to howard:
Stepurhan
By stepurhan
13th May 2021 09:30

Quote:

Thanks for your new comments.
The point is as far as we can see you are required to submit slightly more detail to Companies House sending in Filleted accounts than you would do by preparing Abridged accounts albeit Filleted accounts are easier to produce with the software that we use.

Let me see if I understand you.

If you use an accounts format that includes more detail, you have to include more detail in that accounts format. Is that really what is giving you a problem?

If you want to submit minimum detail, use the accounts format that allows you to submit minimum detail that the company is permitted to use. If it is harder for you to produce the lower detail format with your software, it sounds like you are using the wrong software.

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Replying to howard:
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By paul.benny
13th May 2021 10:29

Companies Act s444 specifies what a Small company must file (balance sheet) and may file (P&L); FRS102 1A sets out the form and content of Abridged P&L and balance sheet.

What is it you think is required by Companies House that's not covered by these requirements?

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Replying to howard:
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By Paul Crowley
13th May 2021 10:01

You post Anon. (Abuse on ANON)

Then you report a posting

Then you uncloak

If there is an element of personal or professional sensitivity in your question, there is an option to post it anonymously. Please do not abuse this facility - your identity can be checked by the site moderators. There is no anonymous posting option for comments on threads. Should you come back to comment below your anonymous question, your site ID will be visible to other readers.

https://www.accountingweb.co.uk/any-answers/how-to-use-any-answers

Why report the posting?

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Replying to Paul Crowley:
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By I'msorryIhaven'taclue
13th May 2021 10:12

Yes, why the report? To inform is so dishonourable.

AND TRY NOT TO SHOUT!

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By Duggimon
13th May 2021 10:35

I thought abridged accounts are the same as filleted accounts. I thought you abridged them by filleting out the detailed P&L and P&L notes.

I use "I thought" somewhat misleadingly there though because I know I am right, at least for our software. Abridged accounts are filleted accounts.

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By lionofludesch
13th May 2021 10:44

Quote:

I thought abridged accounts are the same as filleted accounts. I thought you abridged them by filleting out the detailed P&L and P&L notes.

I use "I thought" somewhat misleadingly there though because I know I am right, at least for our software. Abridged accounts are filleted accounts.

No. Not the same at all.

Abridged accounts have a P+L account. Unless they are filleted abridged accounts.

You need a chat with your software provider.

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Replying to lionofludesch:
By Duggimon
13th May 2021 16:56

As Paul has previously commented, my confusion stems from IRIS using "ABR" as the code for filleted accounts.

I had entirely forgotten the terms were not interchangeable, this thread has come as something of a surprise!

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Replying to Duggimon:
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By Paul Crowley
13th May 2021 14:58

I have never seen any abridged accounts used by any new client or on any company that I have searched.
They became pointless once 'no P & L accounts' were permitted
Abridged accounts means deliberately giving less good accounts to the share holders.
Once IRIS added detailed balance sheet to full accounts on Micro companies I consider Micro much better than FRS 102 for client ease of understanding

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By carnmores
13th May 2021 10:56

if people want to use capitals then as far as i am concerned they can . there are many reasons why people use them particularly those with sight difficulties, so to say that they are always shouting is wrong, it is the least offensive approach on AWeb there are far greater crimes and ruder contributors on here

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Replying to carnmores:
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By DaveyJonesLocker
13th May 2021 11:05

Such sight difficulties, it seems, that they clicked the Anon button in error......

I have sight difficulties myself and it makes no difference if the font is in capitals.

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By lionofludesch
13th May 2021 11:20

Quote:

if people want to use capitals then as far as i am concerned they can . there are many reasons why people use them particularly those with sight difficulties .......

Adjusting the font size on your browser might be a better plan.

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Replying to carnmores:
Stepurhan
By stepurhan
13th May 2021 13:59

All caps is difficult for the majority of people to read, because it takes away the shape of individual words that aid reading. This will be even worse for those that have reading difficulties already.

People with sight issues can adjust font size or use a screen reader. There are no similar fixes for all caps, so it is you that is ignoring people who have issues with reading text in this way.

I doubt you think of yourself as one of the ruder contributors, but post like this, which you make regularly, indicate otherwise.

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By carnmores
13th May 2021 14:22

That's a fascinating reply I hadn't appreciated that

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paddle steamer
By DJKL
13th May 2021 10:59

Of course none of this addresses why it can at times actually be helpful to over disclose.

Those that do and whose accounts are not riddled with obvious errors get further through the DJKL smell test re prospective new tenants before we maybe ask for three years full accounts with a detailed P & L.

Those with minimum disclosure, where I often have no idea what level of profit the business makes until I finally see the full accounts, may by that time already have been pipped to the unit by one of the other early disclosers.

Landlordd do not waste time, well we do not, we have seen myriad tyre kickers over the years, over disclosure can give first mover advantage.

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Replying to DJKL:
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By Paul Crowley
13th May 2021 11:57

Never yet come across a client choosing to put income or profit into the public domain.
If that happened accidentally I would reaching for my PII policy.

Any new client coming in who chose to disclose without a good motive we would consider to be ill advised.

Why would a micro or small company owner want his employees and neighbours knowing this

Do you put your P60 on fakebook?

Really interested to understand why the ill advised pass your sniff test and the well advised fail?

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Replying to Paul Crowley:
paddle steamer
By DJKL
13th May 2021 12:56

Because my time is precious, a desirable unit with 5 prospectives and I am not waiting around for tenants to get their ducks in a row, ask their accountant for stuff and we twiddle our thumbs as we wait for copies.

If I have a unit empty I want to fill it. Now as we have circa 100 commercial properties, the vast majority in tertiary market on 12 month leases, and I review accounts near daily, he who makes my life easier grabs my attention- it is nothing more than my time costs so dealing with these often comes down to, does he look like he can pay the rent, has he been around a few years, is his balance sheet okayish,it is, draft the licence to occupy, call him, he comes to office to sign, pays deposit, hand him keys, job done, I can get back to doing something a lot more valuable like buying or selling an £xmillion property.

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A Putey FACA
By Arthur Putey
13th May 2021 11:30

Unless I am out of date (which wouldn't matter because no-one did Abridged accounts anyway), doesn't it go (under FRS102 S1A):
Members accounts can be Abridged with the conent of the shareholders (or a majority of them)
Whatever option is chosen for the members accounts gets sent to HMRC
And whatever option is chosen for the members accounts can optionally be filleted prior to submission to Companies House.

So (in my software at least) you can have Filleted Abridged Financial Statements.

The stupidest change in terminolgy was to replace Abbreviated with Filleted. Probably done by the same person that introduced Furloughed into everyday use?

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Replying to Arthur Putey:
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By lionofludesch
13th May 2021 11:37

Quote:

Unless I am out of date (which wouldn't matter because no-one did Abridged accounts anyway), doesn't it go (under FRS102 S1A):
Members accounts can be Abridged with the conent of the shareholders (or a majority of them)
Whatever option is chosen for the members accounts gets sent to HMRC
And whatever option is chosen for the members accounts can optionally be filleted prior to submission to Companies House.

So (in my software at least) you can have Filleted Abridged Financial Statements.

My understanding too.

Quote:

The stupidest change in terminolgy was to replace Abbreviated with Filleted. Probably done by the same person that introduced Furloughed into everyday use?

Apparently some member of the ICAEW committee came up with that. It's not a Companies Act term.

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By Hugo Fair
13th May 2021 11:51

"Apparently some member of the ICAEW committee came up with that" ... probably after being served Sole meuniere during a break in the committee's arduous work?

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A Putey FACA
By Arthur Putey
13th May 2021 15:08

The irony of filleted in culinary terms meaning to remove the bones, leaving only the flesh to be consumed was probably lost on them.

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By Paul Crowley
13th May 2021 16:22

Good analogy

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By Mr_awol
13th May 2021 16:28

Quote:

The irony of filleted in culinary terms meaning to remove the bones, leaving only the flesh to be consumed was probably lost on them.

I see your point, but cant decide if it is ironic or perfectly logical.

To fillet means to remove the bones from the flesh (and normally the bones are then discarded of course).

But are the 'bones' the BS and the structure we submit as filleted accounts, less the 'flesh' that we discard (in which case you are right)

OR are the filleted accounts the 'fleshy' good bits, and the 'bony' bits you wouldnt want to eat (or put on public record) have been removed.

Personally i wouldnt put "stripped down" or "Bastardised" on the front cover either.

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A Putey FACA
By Arthur Putey
13th May 2021 17:23

Yes you could take it either way, but I doubt many wood. Its a bit like saying that to enjoy a banana you should remove the inside (a joke done to good effect in Carry On Up The Jungle as I recall).

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By Tax Dragon
13th May 2021 16:39

Arthur Putey wrote:

The irony of filleted in culinary terms meaning to remove the bones, leaving only the flesh to be consumed was probably lost on them.

Very good.

Maybe any of gutted, disembowelled, eviscerated, ravaged, or similar were considered too graphic for those of a gentle disposition?

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Replying to Tax Dragon:
A Putey FACA
By Arthur Putey
13th May 2021 17:20

Can I submit Hung, Drawn and Quartered accounts? If not I'll change the name of the practice to that, although I still like Drew, Peacock and Co.

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Replying to lionofludesch:
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By Paul Crowley
13th May 2021 12:25

The problem is there was absolute determination that Abbreviated accounts could no longer be submitted.
Then when the u turn happened nobody came up with a statutory or other term for filing without profit and loss account

This came up on a ACCA practice society course (Me pointing out the lack of a word) and the lecturer said at that point that some people were using the word filleted. The reaction of the course was audibly negative, lecturer then reacted agreeing no standard word but that filleted was being used regularly.
This all before the event so Software was working under the old rules, and old words

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By lionofludesch
13th May 2021 12:33

Quote:

The problem is there was absolute determination that Abbreviated accounts could no longer be submitted.
Then when the u turn happened nobody came up with a statutory or other term for filing without profit and loss account

This came up on a ACCA practice society course (Me pointing out the lack of a word) and the lecturer said at that point that some people were using the word filleted. The reaction of the course was audibly negative, lecturer then reacted agreeing no standard word but that filleted was being used regularly.
This all before the event so Software was working under the old rules, and old words

I would never put "Filleted" on the cover of the accounts, though some folk do.

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Replying to lionofludesch:
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By Paul Crowley
13th May 2021 15:05

Same here
Still really dislike the word, but like IR 35 it is stuck forever. There is no other generally accepted word.

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By vtsoftware
13th May 2021 11:46

There are 5 formats available for company accounts:

Micro
Small abridged
Small
Medium
Large

The main advantage of abridged accounts is that they do not show the detail in the debtors and creditors notes. In particular, the corporation tax liability is not shown separately (from which one could otherwise estimate profit).

When accounts are filed with Companies House, the profit and loss account and related notes (and directors' report if applicable) can be omitted from micro, abridged and small company accounts. These are often called filleted accounts, although the term is not official.

Philip Hodgson
VT Software

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Replying to vtsoftware:
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By lionofludesch
13th May 2021 12:12

Quote:

The main advantage of abridged accounts is that they do not show the detail in the debtors and creditors notes. In particular, the corporation tax liability is not shown separately (from which one could otherwise estimate profit).

There's no requirement to show Corporation Tax separately. The heading is Taxation and Social Security which will include PAYE, NIC, VAT and pretty much anything else due to the Government.

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By vtsoftware
13th May 2021 12:19

I stand corrected. I was working from memory too much.

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By lionofludesch
13th May 2021 12:25

Quote:

I stand corrected. I was working from memory too much.

You were not alone. I recall some lengthy debate on the point five or so years ago.

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A Putey FACA
By Arthur Putey
13th May 2021 15:04

Might be better for a software firm to work from specifications!

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By Arcadia
13th May 2021 14:19

Slightly off the subject, but this raises the question in my mind as it always does, of the public policy aspects of allowing abbreviated/abridged/filleted in the first place. I thought the price of limited liability was the disclosure of adequate information for potential and existing creditors (including prospective landlords) to assess the position and performance of the company. The information currently going on Companies House does not provide this. Society at large, including one's friends and neighbours, are entitled to better information, because it is society at large which pays for failed businesses which should not have been lent money in the first place.

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