Share this content
39

Any clues what I can do to make HMRC listen to me?

HMRC refuse to accept that my client have NOT overpaid PAYE/NHI by nearly £60k

Didn't find your answer?

For over 2 years the company have written and phoned to tell HMRC that they have NOT overpaid nearly £60k. HMRC will not accept this and still insist that the company have overpaid. I have traced it all back and found out how it happened and explained it but to no avail.

Bearing this in mind, another client, when I have looked at the annual summary, shows that they have overpaid by nearly £10k. I have written and told them that the two months where HMRC say they have overpaid are correctly submitted and accord with the RTI returns.

dont know what else to do

 

Replies (39)

Please login or register to join the discussion.

ALISK
By atleastisoundknowledgable...
23rd May 2020 14:32

Take the refunds, put it in a savings account and wait for HMRC to ask for it back. The clients will earn a bit of interest & if things go desperate, they have some cash that Zhmrc don’t think is owed to them.

Thanks (2)
Replying to atleastisoundknowledgable...:
avatar
By memyself-eye
23rd May 2020 18:18

Not into a savings account -0 they will earn zilch. Premium bonds are the way to go.

Thanks (1)
RLI
By lionofludesch
23rd May 2020 14:42

I had this once and gave up. It wasn't £60k though.

More like £72.

Why don't you complain to your MP about public waste ?

Meanwhile, stick it in a separate account and wait for them to collect it. You've told them. You've done your bit.

Thanks (1)
avatar
By Jfg
23rd May 2020 14:42

My inclination is to give up and put the money into a different account. The only drawback is that it has not been noticed in2 audits and putting into a new b/s account will attract interest at the next audit.

Thanks (0)
Replying to Jfg:
RLI
By lionofludesch
23rd May 2020 15:38

Jfg wrote:

My inclination is to give up and put the money into a different account. The only drawback is that it has not been noticed in2 audits and putting into a new b/s account will attract interest at the next audit.

Not been noticed ?

So you didn't think you should mention it to the auditors ?

Or - it may be time to look at new auditors.

Thanks (1)
avatar
By Wanderer
23rd May 2020 15:09

Ask for it to be referred to the HMRC PAYE Disputed Payments / Charges Team / Charge Resolution Team (name seems to change). Here's something about the HMRC internal process which makes the referral:-
https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/debt-management-and-banking/dmb...
They are the ONLY ones who will properly sort out the mess that is the HMRC RTI system. In my experience staffed by higher calibre of HMRC officer than normal

As long as you've done the RTI's correctly resist any suggestion that you need to do any amended FPS / EPS / EYU. That will further compound the issue.

Thanks (4)
Replying to Wanderer:
avatar
By EllaB
27th May 2020 10:13

Thank you!

I have a case where I have submitted a correct FPS but they have only pulled through 1 of the 2 employees included in it - so the PAYE account is showing a credit value.

I have been advised twice to submit an EYU but am reluctant to do so as the FPS was correct - and HMRC have confirmed they have received the report with two employees on!

Thanks (0)
Replying to EllaB:
avatar
By Jfg
27th May 2020 10:26

I think submission of an EYU is normally the kiss of death...

Thanks (0)
Replying to Wanderer:
avatar
By EllaB
27th May 2020 10:15

Thank you!

I have a case where I have submitted a correct FPS but they have only pulled through 1 of the 2 employees included in it - so the PAYE account is showing a credit value.

I have been advised twice to submit an EYU but am reluctant to do so as the FPS was correct - and HMRC have confirmed they have received the report with two employees on!

Thanks (0)
Hallerud at Easter
By DJKL
23rd May 2020 16:12

I have the opposite re CT, HMRC have "mislaid" £20,000 we have paid to them and have made no effort to either find it( or chase us for the money).

After giving up getting it resolved on the phone have been reduced to writing to them enclosing copy bank statements detailing all the payments we made to the bill so they can identify the two that were missing (I stupidly paid them in £10k tranches as that was my bank threshold, what I ought to have done, and will do in future, is arrange for our bank to transfer the entire bill in one go.)

Thanks (1)
Replying to DJKL:
avatar
By sally1964
27th May 2020 11:05

Always vary the payments by at least £1 if you have to pay in tranches so it can be traced if they go missing.

Thanks (3)
avatar
By fawltybasil2575
23rd May 2020 16:56

@ Jfg (OP).

Re the "£60K" overpayment matter, I would respectfully suggest that, notwithstanding your attempts to resolve matters, one must ensure that HMRC have no reason to LATER contend impropriety on the part of yourselves and/or your client company, if and when the company receives, and retains, payment by HMRC in purported settlement thereof.

I would firmly caution AGAINST suggesting to your client company that it requests HMRC to make payment in respect of any monies which HMRC regard as having been overpaid. If and when HMRC do make payment to your client company by cheque, then it would be incorrect (indeed illegal) for your client company to bank such cheque (entirely regardless of error by HMRC).

If, however, HMRC make payment by way of bank transfer, then you must request your client company to make immediate repayment to HMRC for the exact amount thereof (assuming of course that the company still believes that such payment by HMRC was incorrect).

Basil.

Thanks (1)
Replying to fawltybasil2575:
avatar
By Jfg
26th May 2020 21:06

Client has no intention of requesting a refund etc etc. Just would like them to accept they are wrong

Thanks (0)
avatar
By frankfx
23rd May 2020 17:15

Write to MP .
Provide time lines and communications.

Ask for Jim Harra to respond.

Request a full and thorough explanation , why several attempt's fell on deaf ears .

Ask if this is yet another example of human , not IT, system failures at HMRC , even though taxpayer was assertive .

A client had a 'similar' brick wall experience some years ago .

MP letter had desired effect, and a very full response followed.

While at it CC Mel Stride at:

https://committees.parliament.uk/committee/158/treasury-committee

Your client may feel he deserves a finders fee reward for the effort he and you have devoted to resolving this...... rather than '' standing by and staring''.

Be alert , goes beyond Covid -19.

Several NHS worker salaries is the value of the mistake being resolutely refuted !

In contrast The HMRC staff have been paid , for poor workmanship that seems to be accepted with a shrug of the shoulders.

Please let us know the outcome of any steps you decide to take.

Thanks (3)
Replying to frankfx:
avatar
By Jfg
26th May 2020 21:08

Thank you, we have been considering writing to our MP. Comes to something when you have to get an MP to intercede to get the HMRC to accept your money...

Thanks (1)
Replying to frankfx:
avatar
By Jfg
26th May 2020 21:08

Thank you, we have been considering writing to our MP. Comes to something when you have to get an MP to intercede to get the HMRC to accept your money...

Thanks (0)
avatar
By Jfg
23rd May 2020 19:39

Thank you all for your thoughts. I do like the idea of premium bonds LOL. Would the winnings be taxable?????
But I am appalled at the thought how much is being lost to the country. I think I will write to my MP both both cases.

Thanks (0)
Replying to Jfg:
RLI
By lionofludesch
23rd May 2020 19:46

Jfg wrote:

Thank you all for your thoughts. I do like the idea of premium bonds LOL. Would the winnings be taxable?????

No.

Thanks (0)
Replying to Jfg:
avatar
By frankfx
24th May 2020 21:46

I wrote the letter on behalf my MP.

If only to expedite the matter .

His assistant converted it into MP s house style.

Nothing was lost in translation.

Though my specific request that the letter was acknowledged and replied to within certain time lines was declined.

"We find that government staff and departments work to their own clock''

Thanks (0)
Replying to Jfg:
By Nebs
27th May 2020 10:35

Jfg wrote:

Thank you all for your thoughts. I do like the idea of premium bonds LOL. Would the winnings be taxable?????
But I am appalled at the thought how much is being lost to the country. I think I will write to my MP both both cases.

No, but as premium bonds can only be held by an individual the money would first need to be taken out of the (Limited?) company with the associated tax implications.

Thanks (0)
Replying to Jfg:
By Nebs
27th May 2020 10:35

Jfg wrote:

Thank you all for your thoughts. I do like the idea of premium bonds LOL. Would the winnings be taxable?????
But I am appalled at the thought how much is being lost to the country. I think I will write to my MP both both cases.

No, but as premium bonds can only be held by an individual the money would first need to be taken out of the (Limited?) company with the associated tax implications.

Thanks (0)
Psycho
By Wilson Philips
23rd May 2020 21:47

Are HMRC suggesting that they are going to repay it, though? One of the more frustrating episodes that I had was where HMRC persistently wrote to me to advise of an “overpayment” but that they would not refund it until it had been explained. They were sent a full reconciliation, explaining no overpayment, but still the letters came.

Thanks (2)
avatar
By Refs1
23rd May 2020 23:05

A few weeks ago HMRC took away my agents self assessment account without notice. It was just before the end of the tax year. Not happy. HMRC fobbed me off for a couple of days, getting know where quick. Went online at midnight found lots of important people emails addresses and then sent plenty of copy and paste emails to all and sundry not polite either. Someone needs to listen and resolve this. My problem was solved within 48 hours of these emails. A few days later HMRC wrote to me saying they had took my account away due to not filling a form that we had not received. I refused to close the compliant until I gave them feedback on there poor service. So stand your ground.
.

Thanks (2)
avatar
By bernard michael
26th May 2020 14:23

I have a client who gets a letter every 2 months either claiming an underpayment or an overpayment. All of different amounts. Phone calls to HMRC and several letters are to no avail The RTI's are submitted on time as is the payment, which is the declared amount

I've now advised the client to ignore the letters and all I do is file them

Thanks (3)
avatar
By bernard michael
26th May 2020 14:24

I have a client who gets a letter every 2 months either claiming an underpayment or an overpayment. All of different amounts. Phone calls to HMRC and several letters are to no avail The RTI's are submitted on time as is the payment, which is the declared amount

I've now advised the client to ignore the letters and all I do is file them No refunds have been forthcoming

Thanks (0)
avatar
By fawltybasil2575
26th May 2020 22:39

@ Jfg.

Thank you for your post at 21.06 today (as above).

Forgive me for concentrating, in my last post, on the necessity not to accept monies from HMRC (this IMHO being the crucially important matter, since such would be a criminal offence, on the grounds that receiving monies to which one is not entitled is illegal).

I appreciate nonetheless that you are anxious to resolve the disparity between (i) your being 100% certain that no repayment is due from HMRC, and (ii) HMRC’s insistence to the contrary.

This is best resolved by means of a letter to HMRC along the lines of :-

“I enclosed a detailed calculation (showing dates and amounts) which my client and I believe proves that no repayment is due. Please ensure that I receive from you, within 30 days, either:-

(i) Your written agreement that no repayment is due, or
(ii) [If you disagree our belief] full details of any items, on my attached calculation, which you consider have been omitted or are incorrect,

and thereby reconcile my calculation with your records which show that a repayment is due of £xxxxx.xx”

Basil.

Thanks (1)
Replying to fawltybasil2575:
avatar
By Jfg
26th May 2020 21:55

Thank you, I will try this

Thanks (0)
Replying to fawltybasil2575:
avatar
By ikh
27th May 2020 10:20

Be very careful that what you think you know is the whole story. I had a case where the HMRC were insisting that one particular payment had been overpaid some 2 years ago. The banking entries for this particular month were to say the least complicated as the payment was cancelled and then paid on a different day. The bank payments for both were then made and the bank subsequently refunded one of them - identified on the statement as HMRC. Two years and a bit later the bank requested repayment of said sum as they had refunded it out of their suspense account and not as we thought claimed it back from the HMRC.

Thanks (1)
avatar
By Rgab1947
27th May 2020 10:41

I have a client who has the other story.

HMRC says no tax due but I know the tax is due and was never paid. Checked to see how. HMRC were changing systems. We got an acknowledgement from them that they received the return which had the tax calc attached showing the CT owing. Client had cash flow problems so did not pay. When checking the books the following year showed nothing paid. Checked HMRC account, showed nothing owed.

Told the client to phone and sort it (at the time HMRC would only talk to directors if monies were owing and there were payment difficulties)

Client says nothing owing. So still in the books as I refuse to remove it as in my view its still due.

Client says they never got a demand/reminder or what.

In another jurisdiction the tax authorities had a large amount of cash which they could not link to a taxpayer so to clear the books they applied it to taxpayers owing tax. Strange but it cleared up their books. Audit general not happy.

Thanks (1)
x
By rockallj
27th May 2020 11:10

I agree with Wanderer on this as I had a similar RTI error issue last year.

Complain profusely with DMU and escalate it up to the referrals/complaints department and then file your letter away. It may take a few months, probably 2-3, but it will be resolved when HMRC takes up your case in late summer/early autumn.

In the meantime stand your ground with DMU. With a formal referral lodged, the regular letters should stop.

Good luck!

Thanks (0)
avatar
By Comptable
27th May 2020 11:32

How much time have you spent on this (no I don’t mean the AWeb thread!)? Have you billed that time ?
You should not bill your client for it, nor should you write it off.
Why not bill HMRC and see what effect that has?
It is of course high level premium rate work!

Thanks (0)
Replying to Comptable:
avatar
By Jfg
27th May 2020 11:49

Well,billing HMRC, that should go down like a lead balloon LOL.
Many years ago, I worked for a very upper class old school type, and one of his best was to phone a customer, who he considered in the wrong, and demanded that he accept a debit note to cover the inconvenience. Against all odds, the customer not only accepted it but also paid it.

Thanks (0)
Replying to Jfg:
avatar
By Southwestbeancounter
27th May 2020 15:20

Ordinarily billing HMRC will be ignored, as we all know, but once you start copying Jim Harra into emails I found that I was dealing with an inspector like we used to 20 years ago and he actually suggested I billed for the work! He wanted me to bill the client and then HMRC would look at the bill and pay it ' if reasonable'! but I refused as it wasn't the clients bill to pay and so he agreed I could email him the bill and HMRC would pay it (if reasonable!) which is was and so they did!!

Thanks (1)
Replying to Southwestbeancounter:
avatar
By Jfg
27th May 2020 15:59

I say, that's what you call a result!!!!

Thanks (1)
Replying to Jfg:
avatar
By Southwestbeancounter
27th May 2020 16:05

Yes, it was very unusual but I was pleased I held my ground and wouldn't budge as it paid off and to be honest it was the only fair solution as HMRC had totally messed up the VAT and PAYE for the same client!

Thanks (0)
Replying to Comptable:
avatar
By Comptable
28th May 2020 14:04

Sorry - I should have been more clear.
I wasn't meaning that you just raise a bill and post itto HMRC.
You need to make a formal complaint and work towards the bill.
It is certainly not unknown for them to settle when they have made a complete mess of something.

Thanks (0)
Replying to Comptable:
avatar
By Jfg
28th May 2020 14:30

Thanks
In that case, they must be constantly coughing out....

Thanks (0)
avatar
By Bruce Roberts
28th May 2020 14:50

We have had a couple of these cases over the years and I have wasted so much time due to HMRC's hopelesss sytems that I now take a different approach. Instead of endless correspondence and phonecalls I simply insist that, if HMRC believe there is a problem they should open a proper PAYE inspection. If they don't believe there is a problem then they should accept that the payments are correct, correct the portal figures and make any refunds they believe are due.

Thanks (0)
By rbusfield
28th May 2020 16:19

Taxpayers can face a penalty if they do not tell HMRC that an assessment is too low, therefore it is important that you keep any evidence of your correspondence to HMRC. Rebecca Busfield (Watt Busfield Tax Investigations)

Thanks (0)
Share this content

Related posts