Any point writing to HMRC to appeal SA penalties?

Any point writing to HMRC to appeal against...

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I know this is a long shot.  My client has just incurred a penalty of £700 as he had failed to submit his tax return for 2012/13 - he has just been careless.   There isn't any tax to pay.

We all know the self assessment penalties are disproportionate compared to the offence committed but has anyone been able to convince HMRC to waive off these excessive and unjust penalties.

Replies (51)

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By ArsalanShah
23rd Jul 2014 06:25

Just abit curious

how your client has been charged penalty of £700 for 2012/13 return?

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Replying to GR:
By petersaxton
23rd Jul 2014 07:54

£700

ArsalanShah wrote:

how your client has been charged penalty of £700 for 2012/13 return?

£100 31/01/14 and £600 from 01/05/14 at £10 per day. I assume they are thinking it will take another few days to submit.

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Stepurhan
By stepurhan
23rd Jul 2014 07:42

Unrepresented?

You say he is your client, but presumably this is a new client. If they were previously unrepresented I have had some luck in getting penalties overturned using the excuse that they didn't know any better. You would think the warning letters would clue most people in, but there are those who think they don't have to do a return and so think the problem will go away. The fact that there is no tax to pay, so a reason to think no return was due however misguided, is in your favour.

If they were a client at the time the return was due then you are likely out of luck. HMRC, not unreasonably, expects advisers to make clients fully aware of their responsibilities.

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By petersaxton
23rd Jul 2014 07:58

Appeals

I have a client who didn't do tax returns for a few years and put his head in the sand. The penalties were over £3k and he wrote a letter as I advised - he told the truth but I didn't think it was a good enough reason but HMRC cancelled the penalties.

I have another client who has done a lot of tax returns after saying he's been "too busy" for several years! He's put together a "reason" for appeal by saying the penalty is disproportionate. It's a bit of a rant so I will have a chat with him.

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RLI
By lionofludesch
23rd Jul 2014 09:15

Always worth appealing

If you don't ask, you don't get.

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Stepurhan
By stepurhan
23rd Jul 2014 09:19

True enough

I once made an appeal where even I thought the reason given was a bit of a stretch. The most technical and minor of breaches by HMRC that should have been picked up and corrected by us as agents months before anyway. Heck, I couldn't even definitively prove that breach either. I remember how pleasantly surprised I was getting the letter accepting the appeal on that one. 

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Replying to andy.partridge:
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By lionofludesch
23rd Jul 2014 09:41

Me too

stepurhan wrote:

I once made an appeal where even I thought the reason given was a bit of a stretch. The most technical and minor of breaches by HMRC that should have been picked up and corrected by us as agents months before anyway. Heck, I couldn't even definitively prove that breach either. I remember how pleasantly surprised I was getting the letter accepting the appeal on that one. 

And how much can it cost to send in a letter ?  We're not solicitors ......

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By Carat
23rd Jul 2014 09:25

Donaldson v HMRC

The Upper Tier Tribunal heard HMRCs appeal against the decision in Donaldson & Morgan v HMRC earlier this month.

At first instance the FTT tribunal overturned the daily penalties and you should have a read of that case for some ammunition..

 

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By Ned Ludd
23rd Jul 2014 09:31

Donaldson
Does anyone know the outcome of the upper tier tribunal ??

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By phil7979
23rd Jul 2014 11:29

Self Assessment Penalties

Quite frankly I'm astonished at the number of emails stating success at appealing Self Assessment penalties! I made a mistake on my self-assessment from in relation to redundancy payment and, when this was drawn to my notice immediately accepted it and paid the additional tax well within the time limit so there was no actual nor potential loss to the Exchequer. HMRC still pursued the penalty despite my MP writing to the Head of HMRC pointing out that the purpose and intent of the legislation was aimed at catching persistent and obvious offenders rather than those who made a genuine mistake: after all the self assessment forms are not that easy to follow. During corresponding with HMRC they accepted they'd made mistakes but pursued me for the penalty, which in the end I paid due to being "worn down" by HMRC's harrassment. Wish I'd seen these email threads at the time because I'd have taken heart from the and resisted them to the bitter end! This all happened in 2009/10: can anyone advise if I can revisit this with HMRC and try to recover the £784.51 HMRC "fleeced" me of?

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Me!
By nigelburge
23rd Jul 2014 11:35

@phil7979

Why didn't you appeal and do to the Tribunal? That is what it is there for.

You did consult an accountant about this didn't you?

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By petersaxton
23rd Jul 2014 11:38

The Courts attitudes has changed

It used to be very difficult getting penalties overturned but recent court cases have encouraged HMRC to be more lenient.

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By Nobody2
23rd Jul 2014 14:24

Hello

I have a new client with old unappealed penalties still due. No tax was due and the client had moved house and had no advisor ( she was in paye at this point)...i know normally you wouldnt have any chance here. BUT the question is does this change as she has been diagnosed with a mental illness which makes it hard for her to cope at times. Does HMRC have any compassion or is this legally excluded ( tongue in cheek)

 

Nobody 2

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Replying to ireallyshouldknowthisbut:
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By lionofludesch
24th Jul 2014 10:26

Go fo it

Nobody2 wrote:

Hello

I have a new client with old unappealed penalties still due. No tax was due and the client had moved house and had no advisor ( she was in paye at this point)...i know normally you wouldnt have any chance here. BUT the question is does this change as she has been diagnosed with a mental illness which makes it hard for her to cope at times. Does HMRC have any compassion or is this legally excluded ( tongue in cheek)

 

Nobody 2

Go for it.  HMRC may make the first decision but, ultimately, it's for the Tribunal to decide.

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Replying to Nobody2:
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By legerman
12th Aug 2018 00:39

Just realised I was replying to a 4 year old post.

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Replying to legerman:
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By lionofludesch
12th Aug 2018 10:07

legerman wrote:

Just realised I was replying to a 4 year old post.

"Trending", was it ?

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By the_Poacher
24th Jul 2014 10:48

If you don't ask....

if you don't ask you don't get.

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By Confused.com.con
02nd Dec 2017 17:16

Apologies for bringing up an old thread
I've appealed to HMRC over late payment penalty and long story short they've said it is outwith the period for appealing. Due to financial problems I've not been able to pay my self assessment and have fines of 3k added to my tax liability. Is there anything I could do to have this reduced? I am desperate for any help.

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Replying to Confused.com.con:
RLI
By lionofludesch
03rd Dec 2017 17:33

Depends. What are the penalties for ? Not submitting your return or late payment ? Or are they determinations ?

What years are the returns for ? Why did you submit them late ? Or why did you pay late ?

Tell us your story .....

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Replying to lionofludesch:
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By Confused.com.con
03rd Dec 2017 17:46

I was having cash flow problems due to a business not paying me on time. On top of this I had moved house and needed emergency works done which was going fine...until the contractor turned out to be an alcoholic and relapsed. The work was never completed and he died from alcohol poisoning a couple of weeks later. So I ended up paying again for the works to be completed. I hadn't paid 13/14 July payment and then 14/15 15/16 I submitted my tax returns and hadn't made payments due to me being completely backlogged. So I've got late payment fines on top of late payment fines and interest. I did probably the worst thing and stuck my head in the sand and ignored it.
I had a field force collector out to the house and she gave me time to pay. I paid off a lump sum and there is still some outstanding which I am taking a personal loan to pay off. The biggest issue is the penalties are at 3k the field force collector said I could appeal which I did and heard back after 4 weeks where HMRC said it's too late to appeal. In the meantime I've had another late payment fine! It's spiralling out of control. I wasn't aware I could appeal the fines until she told me and probably been very naive in the whole situation but the stress took over and I just didn't think straight to sort it out sooner and I'm paying the price obviously. I need any help I can get!

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Replying to Confused.com.con:
By petersaxton
04th Dec 2017 11:07

when you get a penalty notice you are told you can appeal

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Replying to petersaxton:
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By Confused.com.con
04th Dec 2017 11:22

Yeah but I ignored the situation and due to the stress of it all I didn't even open letters from HMRC so I have made myself into a bad situation

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Replying to Confused.com.con:
RLI
By lionofludesch
04th Dec 2017 17:58

Cash flow is not normally an excuse. HMRC don't like the idea that you've spent their money as well as your own.

However, if you can concentrate your case on your other woes, emphasing that they were beyond your control, and offer to pay the tax due - better still, get that element of the debt paid - you might have a ghost of a chance.

You're very late though. That'll be your weakness.

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Replying to lionofludesch:
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By Confused.com.con
04th Dec 2017 21:27

Thank you for the response.
Where do I go from here? The appeal has been rejected first hand as it's late.
It was totally out with my control and in hindsight I should have sorted it out much earlier. I had money ringfenced for the tax, for the work to be carried out at home but due to a business not paying me everything fell behind. This was compounded by the contractor dying and I lost my money and had to dig into the bank accounts.
I wrote in my appeal I was actively trying to pay it all asap and I intend to pay it off as soon as physically possible.

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Replying to Confused.com.con:
By petersaxton
04th Dec 2017 21:43

phone HMRC and explain what you have said here and you may get a sympathetic hearing - maybe even phone three or four times
the alternative is to pay up and don't get into the mess again

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By User deleted
10th Aug 2018 20:16

Hi. I know this is quite old post but thought I'll try anyway. What "excuse" did your clients use to get their tax penalties written off? I got someone who hasn't done their return for few years because they didn't think it mattered and now been fined £6k. Need help to create a reason

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Replying to User deleted:
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By Tax Dragon
11th Aug 2018 15:41

You misunderstand. Reasonable excuses are those that derive from the facts. Your someone needs to tell HMRC the facts. There either is a reasonable excuse or there isn't. This is real life, not a fairy tale.

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Replying to Tax Dragon:
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By User deleted
11th Aug 2018 16:59

Why are you being rude for???? If you can't answer the question then just don't bother writing instead of harrasing people who actually need help!!! I'm trying to find out what counts as a reasonable excuse!

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Replying to User deleted:
RLI
By lionofludesch
11th Aug 2018 17:35

SimonaD wrote:

Why are you being rude for???? If you can't answer the question then just don't bother writing instead of harrasing people who actually need help!!! I'm trying to find out what counts as a reasonable excuse!

No - you said you needed to "create a reason".

You were asking us to make up a sob-story for you.

If you tell us what happened, we'll tell you if we think it's reasonable.

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Replying to User deleted:
By Tim Vane
11th Aug 2018 19:21

SimonaD wrote:

Why are you being rude for????

Nobody is being rude, other than you. You crash uninvited into a professional forum, pretending to be a professional when clearly you are just somebody who has neglected to comply with their filing obligations. You have resurrected a 4 year old thread in order to ask us professionals to help furnish you with a made up reasonable excuse in order to help you get out of a penalty situation that you have found yourself in, probably from your own lax attitude.

Then you jump down the throat of the first person to point out that a reasonable excuse is not something you can make up after the fact.

The door is that way. Good evening.

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Replying to User deleted:
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By Tax Dragon
11th Aug 2018 19:28

I genuinely cannot see how any part of what I said was, or could be taken as being, remotely rude. Lion is on the money - you need to tell us what happened, if you want our view.

Or just go straight to HMRC with it, since they (and afterwards the tribunal) are the people you and your someone have to appeal to. Which is basically what I've already said - and it's not rude second time around either.

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By User deleted
11th Aug 2018 19:25

Someone (another accountant) had told him that he doesn't need to fill out his returns & to ignore the letters from HMRC because he doesn't need to bother

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Replying to User deleted:
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By Tax Dragon
11th Aug 2018 19:33

In writing?

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By User deleted
11th Aug 2018 19:41

You started by telling me off & made it out that apparently I'm looking for a sob fairytale story which by the way is not true as you don't know anything and it's rude to just assume. Basically you got your little circle of who you regularly talk to and refuse to help anyone else

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Replying to User deleted:
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By Tax Dragon
11th Aug 2018 19:45

A reasonable response to you asking for a created reason (fairy tale) rather than telling us the real (life) one.

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Replying to User deleted:
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By Tax Dragon
11th Aug 2018 19:51

Your friend's reason may have to stand up in court. So it needs to be demonstrable. Aka true. Aka derive from the facts. Which, again, is what I said and still is not rude.

I'll even wish you good luck. How's that? But you're right, I can't help you. But you're wrong, it's not because I don't want to. As I can't, I'll shut up. Now we're both happy.

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Replying to Tax Dragon:
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By User deleted
11th Aug 2018 19:58

Ok. Thanks anyway. That's the thing. I don't think that my client's reason would hold up in court as it's his word against the old accountant's who has disappeared and disconnected their phone so I can't even get hold of her to get her side of the story in writing. I'm stuck

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RLI
By lionofludesch
11th Aug 2018 22:24

Another satisfied customer ©

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By Ned Ludd
12th Aug 2018 12:06

Just get the letter written to Hmrc explaining the position and see where you end up.

I’ve had loads of penalties rescinded where there was no actual grounds for appeal.

Just tell them the story; explain about the other accountant. If the tax bills are low then explain that the level of penalties are not commensurate with the level of tax.

Make assurances that moving forward you will ensure everything is filed on time and basically throw yourself at their mercy and ask if a concession could be made.

You might be pleasantly surprised.

If you don’t ask you don’t get!

Good luck

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Replying to Ned Ludd:
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By Confused.com.con
12th Aug 2018 12:24

Ned Ludd wrote:

Just get the letter written to Hmrc explaining the position and see where you end up.

I’ve had loads of penalties rescinded where there was no actual grounds for appeal.

Just tell them the story; explain about the other accountant. If the tax bills are low then explain that the level of penalties are not commensurate with the level of tax.

Make assurances that moving forward you will ensure everything is filed on time and basically throw yourself at their mercy and ask if a concession could be made.

You might be pleasantly surprised.

If you don’t ask you don’t get!

Good luck

I didn't get anywhere with my appeals. Still paying them off. I've actually paid back the tax element and paying off the fines and interest now, which seems incredibly harsh as I've paid back what I owed.

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Replying to Ned Ludd:
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By User deleted
12th Aug 2018 12:33

Finally someone reasonable. Thank you for this. I'll try that & see what happens

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Replying to User deleted:
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By Tax Dragon
12th Aug 2018 13:52

It's exactly the same advice Lion and I gave you... even down to wishing you luck, which is what you'll need.

I'll give you some more free advice. People you don't warm to might still be telling you the truth. Open your ears quickly and your mouth slowly. Sometimes the truth is hard to hear.

Oh and don't eat yellow snow. But I'm sure you knew that one already.

(I'm saying the rest of it as much to me as to you, by the way.)

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Replying to Tax Dragon:
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By User deleted
12th Aug 2018 15:24

Well you & Lion have given me same advice, which I thank you for. But you two weren't exactly friendly and keen to help at the start. So who do you think I'll "warm" to? A couple of unfriendly people or the one person who's helpful straight away?
I think we should look on the bright side and agree that we all learned something here.
Anyways I got my answer so I'm done chatting on here. Thank you everyone who helped.

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Replying to User deleted:
RLI
By lionofludesch
13th Aug 2018 09:01

SimonaD wrote:

Well you & Lion have given me same advice, which I thank you for. But you two weren't exactly friendly and keen to help at the start. So who do you think I'll "warm" to? A couple of unfriendly people or the one person who's helpful straight away?
I think we should look on the bright side and agree that we all learned something here.
Anyways I got my answer so I'm done chatting on here. Thank you everyone who helped.

You said you needed to "create a reason".

Not us.

That's what put folks' backs up.

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Replying to User deleted:
By petersaxton
13th Aug 2018 13:30

You'd be better off getting your work done by an accountant in future but it looks like your manner puts everybody off so that's why you can't get an accountant. Consider changing your behaviour.

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Replying to petersaxton:
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By User deleted
13th Aug 2018 13:35

All I did was ask for help. How is that bad manners? There was people on here like yourself who jumped to conclusions. Anyways I got it sorted with them & I got the problem sorted. And btw it's not for me it's for someone else!!! Now back off @petersaxton. I don't need people to bully me online just because I'm new to all this

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Replying to User deleted:
RLI
By lionofludesch
13th Aug 2018 13:45

SimonaD wrote:

All I did was ask for help.

Help to commit an offence ?

And you're surprised by the response ?

You still haven't understood the issue.

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Replying to lionofludesch:
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By User deleted
13th Aug 2018 13:56

@lionofludesch no, I understand that I didn't word it correctly and that got some misunderstandings going on and I'm sorry for that. I obviously didn't want to"create a reason" out of thin air. I wanted to write up what happened in a way that would be easy to understand. Oh well nevermind

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Replying to User deleted:
RLI
By lionofludesch
13th Aug 2018 14:09

SimonaD wrote:

@lionofludesch no, I understand that I didn't word it correctly and that got some misunderstandings going on and I'm sorry for that. I obviously didn't want to"create a reason" out of thin air. I wanted to write up what happened in a way that would be easy to understand. Oh well nevermind

Fair enough.

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Replying to User deleted:
By petersaxton
13th Aug 2018 14:06

How is that bad manners?

“Why are you being rude for???? If you can't answer the question then just don't bother writing instead of harrasing people who actually need help!!!”

“Finally someone reasonable.”

If you don't understand what is wrong with the above comments then there's no hope for you.

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