are vinyl LPs wasting assets?

are vinyl LPs wasting assets for CGT purposes?

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are vinyl LPs wasting assets for CGT purposes?

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the sea otter
By memyself-eye
30th Apr 2019 17:41

Wasting?
Not mine - they play better now than ever...all 91 of them.

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paddle steamer
By DJKL
01st May 2019 09:39

It depends how much you had to drink in the 1970s and 1980s before you returned home at 2.00 am, played a few, did not replace in sleeves and miscued cartridge finding the particular track you wanted to hear- result, your quad version of Dark Side is now a bit iffy.

I am even these days still buying and can give a great rec to Banana Moon in Orebro, Sweden, whilst their prices have been rising in recent years they are still a lot cheaper than here in the UK. (Not counted recently and I gave my son all my Led Zep ,so collection a bit reduced,but must be closing on 400 LPs)

My B in Law has a really serious collection of vinyl, some of his you have to wear gloves before he lets you in the same room ; not for me taking vinyl to that level, too much like stamp collecting.

https://www.facebook.com/bananamoonorebro/

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Replying to DJKL:
By SteveHa
02nd May 2019 15:23

DJKL wrote:

....... I gave my son all my Led Zep ,so collection a bit reduced,but must be closing on 400 LPs)

And boom - in a few words I've lost all respect for you.

You NEVER give Led Zep away!

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Replying to SteveHa:
paddle steamer
By DJKL
02nd May 2019 20:12

I am just glad a 20 odd year old likes Led Zep, especially on vinyl, it is just a shame he also likes a lot of heavy metal.

I have at least retained all my Pink Floyd, Genesis, Yes, ELP, Beatles,Stones, Clapton, Eagles, Lynrd Skynrd (Plus Rossington Collins), ELO, 10CC, McCartney, Harrison, Lennon further works, King Crimson, Blues Band, Goodbye Mr Mackenzie (who are doing a reformed tour this month), Camel, Deep Purple ,Bowie, Focus , Simon & Garfunkel and quite a few others.We even have a fair amount of David Cassidy and the Partridge Family that belong to the other half.

He would have anyway got most of them eventually in our will, the Led Zep is merely a lifetime gift: IHT planning.

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By jaffe123
01st May 2019 09:26

Sold around 200 of my 7" Punk collection a few years ago for £10k profit. Used to visit all the good record stalls in London during the great Punk era and buy around 20 or 30 records every week!!

My best sale was a French punk group Gazoline and their 7" record called Killer Man, paid 5p in chuck out bin in shop and sold for £110.00 20 years later.

Still have around 10,000 records, a mix of 7", 12" and LPs all in plastic sleeves and all recently copied to my computer. Take up a lot of room in my office.

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By Vile Nortin Naipaan
01st May 2019 11:33

Yes. They're machinery.

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By nick farrow
01st May 2019 11:43

seriously Portia?

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Replying to nick farrow:
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By Vile Nortin Naipaan
01st May 2019 11:45

Yes, seriously. They don't DO anything, unless they are integrated into a mechanical device, do they?

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Replying to Vile Nortin Naipaan:
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By nick farrow
01st May 2019 12:12

thanks VNN - very interesting

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Replying to Vile Nortin Naipaan:
Psycho
By Wilson Philips
01st May 2019 13:10

That's an interesting thought - I would never have considered an LP as being integrated into a turntable or other record player. Even where a CD is inserted into a player I'd hesitate to say that it has been integrated with the device.

I'd say that they never DO anything, even when revolving on a turntable. They might have something done to them, in the form of being carved up by a cheap stylus, but I'm reluctant to agree that they are a functioning piece of equipment.

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Replying to Wilson Philips:
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By Tax Dragon
01st May 2019 13:46

Wilson, you are too young to remember this thread: https://www.accountingweb.co.uk/any-answers/cgt-on-sale-of-piano (also started by nick).

Interesting possibility that a cassette, which has moving parts, might be a machine but a CD or LP, which doesn't, isn't.

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Replying to Tax Dragon:
Psycho
By Wilson Philips
01st May 2019 14:00

I’d accept (just) that a cassette is a piece of machinery because, as you say, it has moving parts and it’s function is to deliver the medium to the tape head - just as the function of the turntable is to deliver the medium to the stylus.

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Replying to Wilson Philips:
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By johnhemming
02nd May 2019 19:29

On a purely physical basis a vinyl pushes the stylus around, not very far and quite frequently in different directions, but the vinyl does push the stylus.

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Replying to johnhemming:
Psycho
By Wilson Philips
02nd May 2019 19:51

Excellent point. The vinyl can indeed be said to be carrying out a mechanical function in order that the player can fulfil its function. Contrast my example of the projector where the slides play an entirely passive function. I find myself tending to agree with VNN’s initial opinion- were it necessary to argue the point to achieve a beneficial tax outcome.

I think this is one of those questions that I’d love to see a Tribunal consider.

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Replying to Wilson Philips:
paddle steamer
By DJKL
02nd May 2019 20:59

I am finding cassettes are certainly wasting, a few have bad distortion (I think sunlight) and the tapes are getting very fragile and can snap when played. I think about 10-15 have to date had issues but the frequency seems to be increasing and I have now lost "Only an Excuse" and "Only a World Cup Excuse" -the latter essential listening if you support Scotland as we have nothing else to laugh at except the current teams.(Audio cassettes)

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Replying to Wilson Philips:
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By Vile Nortin Naipaan
01st May 2019 13:49

But the record or the CD is the missing piece of the machine, without which the machine as a whole is unable to fulfil its function. Like a clock with a missing cog. The cog in question does nothing, of itself, but turn and interact with the next cog. However without the cog in question, the clock will not work.

Consider a mechanical hard drive in a computer. Is it machinery? Yes, it is. Now replace it with a solid state drive, with no moving parts. Machinery? And then a pen drive from which the computer may be booted and run. Machinery?

In the case of Nick's LPs, I'd suggest that such an argument would end up on the "too difficult" pile, at the very least.

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Replying to Vile Nortin Naipaan:
Psycho
By Wilson Philips
01st May 2019 13:57

A perfectly logical argument.

But does that then make the petrol in my car machinery?

And does it make a photographic transparency machinery (since the projector cannot fulfil its function until the slide is inserted)?

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Replying to Wilson Philips:
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By Vile Nortin Naipaan
01st May 2019 14:07

Yes. Of course they're machinery.

Your petrol's obviously a chattel in its own right, and a wasting chattel at that. If you happened to have a large enough set to exceed the £6,000 limit I'd argue that you were trading though.

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Replying to Vile Nortin Naipaan:
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By Tax Dragon
01st May 2019 14:33

I'm not sure I'm buying the argument. Even if a part of a machine (presumably, you mean a functional part only, such as your clock cog) is itself a machine, which is itself questionable, it's a stretch to say that an LP is such a part.

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Replying to Tax Dragon:
Psycho
By Wilson Philips
01st May 2019 14:38

If the LP was fixed to the turntable (so that the record player could play only that album) I think I'd have to agree that the LP was an integral part of the machine. But it isn't so fixed - but then again does it really matter if such a 'part' is readily interchangeable? I'm inclined to agree with VNN that this is one for the "too difficult" pile.

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Replying to Wilson Philips:
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By Tax Dragon
01st May 2019 14:49

It's heading towards philosophy, for sure. What if the volume is turned down to 0, or it's playing in the forest, besides a tree that fell silently, and with mortal effect, on the person that switched it on.

(I say silently... I have no proof, as the only person that was there to hear it has been squashed.)

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Psycho
By Wilson Philips
01st May 2019 12:59

Dos it really matter? I'm sure there will be a few out there, but how many are worth more than £6k?

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Replying to Wilson Philips:
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By nick farrow
01st May 2019 13:05

I totally agree but I am concerned that the sets argument may apply in which case we are substantially over the £6k plus 2 AEs

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Replying to nick farrow:
Psycho
By Wilson Philips
01st May 2019 13:15

That is a possibility, depending on the artists/titles. You need to be careful to distinguish between a set and a collection, though.

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Replying to Wilson Philips:
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By Vile Nortin Naipaan
01st May 2019 14:17

A collection is likely to be a set. HMRC's point ar CG76632 and CG6636 is that if a collection is broken up for sale, what is sold may still constitute a set, depending on circumstances.

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Replying to Vile Nortin Naipaan:
Psycho
By Wilson Philips
01st May 2019 14:34

A well-used example is a stamp collection. That is unlikely to be treated as a set in its entirety although within it there may be sets, such as a series of first-day covers issued by the same country on the same day.

The acid test is whether the set/collection is worth more in its entirety than the aggregate of the individual item values. In the case of the vinyl LP collection, this will clearly depend on the composition of the set/collection.

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Replying to Wilson Philips:
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By Jimess
03rd May 2019 11:00

There are a lot of extremely valuable albums out there - it is not difficult to have a collection that you paid a few pound for in the 1960's and 1970's that in good nick will now bring megabucks - anything on original Vertigo (spiral), Dandelion or Neon labels tend to attract big money and if you are lucky enough to own something like an original Leafhound or Red Dirt you can be looking at a couple of thousand in return for your few quid. It does not take a huge collection to build up big money if you are lucky enough to have them.

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Replying to Jimess:
Psycho
By Wilson Philips
03rd May 2019 11:06

Yes, but the point is how many are individually worth more than £6k? Generally, I would guess that a collection of albums will usually be just that. Of course, within that collection there may be a number of sets

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Replying to Wilson Philips:
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By Jimess
03rd May 2019 11:56

Probably more than you think - there is a very rare pressing of Bob Dylan's Freewheeelin' that sold at auction recently for £25K (the first pressing with four songs that were removed and replaced for the main release) and the lower number Beatles White Albums regularly sell for several thousand - Number 000001 previously owned by Ringo Starr was sold at auction last year for £55,000, and numbered White albums below 100 regularly sell for £5K upwards. True they are fairly uncommon, but you never know what is lurking in a collection. Recently a rare reel to reel tape of Bowie demos with previously unreleased material was sold for £49K - the person who sold it was totally unaware of it's value as it had been sitting in a box in his attic for donkeys years. Before the days of stadium rock bands used to regularly stand and sign album covers, concert programs etc - signed copies, if authenticated can give premium value on top of the actual value of the vinyl. There are specialist vinyl auctions and dealers out there and the vinyl market has been on the up for a few years now so I suspect there may be a few more questions of this ilk coming around. Auction houses are latching on to the Vinyl trend now and some have started hosting specialist vinyl auctions so rather than seeing sad boxes of record collections selling for a few quid as used to be the case, the more valuable records are picked out and sold as individual items driving the collectabilty of those albums and pushing the values up. Yes I am a vinyl collector, have been since my teens - but a sensible one!

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By 356B
02nd May 2019 11:45

Having just discovered that two of my Beatles albums are worth £1000+ each, I cannot agree that they're wasting assets.

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Replying to 356B:
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By Vile Nortin Naipaan
02nd May 2019 14:30

You should probably familiarise yourself with TCGA 1992, s 44(1)(b) and 44(3). One person's wasting asset isn't necessarily the next person's wasting asset.

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Replying to 356B:
paddle steamer
By DJKL
02nd May 2019 20:23

Must be Revolver and Sgt Pepper, they were pretty wasted in that period.

More seriously ,sounds like you either have interesting pressing numbers or something like the original Yesterday and Today (infamous Butcher's Block)

I know my B in L does not have that one though has a vast collection including especially Beatles and Bowie, the whole lot must by now be well over the £10k mark as I know he had it all valued at circa £8k about 10 years ago.

The catch is once you know they are worth x you become too afraid to play them which in my view defeats the purpose of having them.

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By 356B
02nd May 2019 18:26

They're chattels, and exempt even if they are wasting assets.

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