Attachments to self assessment returns

Trust income

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I have attached the two page trust income return to self assessment returns for 2022 and 2023 for two of my clients. Both clients have income well under the personal allowance and are due tax refunds. On one of them HMRC have repaid the tax on the trust income and are now asking for the tax to be paid back to them, on the other they are saying no tax is repayable. The latter person is my wife, and with her being the executor of the trust she has paid the trust tax in full at the right time. I presume I am going to have to send HMRC the paper copy of the return. Is there any other way to get them to repay the tax? Or is it that the tax is not repayable at all, since HMRC are asking for tax to be paid back with the first client?

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By Wanderer
19th Dec 2023 12:37

Kosher wrote:

On one of them HMRC have repaid the tax on the trust income and are now asking for the tax to be paid back to them, on the other they are saying no tax is repayable.

Why are HMRC saying this in each case?
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By Kosher
19th Dec 2023 15:35

I am assuming they are overlooking the trust income attachments

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By Wanderer
19th Dec 2023 16:13

Well that can't be if they made a initially made a refund and now are asking it back for one of them.

Did you electronically file the return including the electronic Trust pages.

Or did you electronically file the return and attach the Trust pages as attachments?

Or did you paper file the return, with the paper Trust pages?

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Replying to Wanderer:
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By Kosher
19th Dec 2023 19:04

I electronically filed the return and attached the Trust pages as attachments.

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By Wanderer
19th Dec 2023 19:31

That's where you have gone wrong then. You need to complete the electronic versions of the SA107 which, as MUL says below, are integral parts of a SA return.

Fortunately you are in time to refile all four, so go ahead & do this & all should be okay.

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By Wanderer
19th Dec 2023 12:40

When you mention attachments & attached, describe exactly what you mean.

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Replying to Wanderer:
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By Kosher
19th Dec 2023 15:34

The two page trust income sheets for both 2022 and 2023.

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By More unearned luck
19th Dec 2023 17:51

On the dubious assumption that this thread is not a wind-up:

If you are referring to pages T1 and T1 of the tax return form then they are not 'attachments' nor returns but are integral parts of any tax return where question 6 on page TR 2 has been answered in the affirmative.

It is very unlikely that HMRC will have 'amended' a taxpayer's return without saying why they have amended it.

Executors (and that dying breed executrixes) administer estates not trusts.

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Replying to More unearned luck:
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By Kosher
19th Dec 2023 19:15

I have no time for wind ups and I do all the work from beginning to end of job. It is nearly Christmas and I have everything to do around the house, in order to have any sort of Christmas. I am hoping to get attendance allowance and mobility allowance soon to be able to afford to get help around the house. I don't charge for either of these returns because one client is my wife and the other a relative.

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By leeanthonyblackshaw
19th Dec 2023 18:26

Which boxes of SA107, pages T1 and T2 have you completed?

Are the beneficiaries' interests discretionary (if so, have income distributions been made during the tax year) or interest in possession?

This information may begin to assist in understanding your question.

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Replying to leeanthonyblackshaw:
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By Kosher
19th Dec 2023 19:08

Income distributions been made during the tax year. SA107 T2 has been completed.

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By leeanthonyblackshaw
20th Dec 2023 08:15

T2 is for estate income. T1 is for trust income. Is it a trust or an estate?

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By Kosher
20th Dec 2023 18:49

Estate income

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By leeanthonyblackshaw
21st Dec 2023 14:58
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By Kosher
19th Mar 2024 09:40

Kosher wrote:

I have attached the two page trust income return to self assessment returns for 2022 and 2023 for two of my clients. Both clients have income well under the personal allowance and are due tax refunds. On one of them HMRC have repaid the tax on the trust income and are now asking for the tax to be paid back to them, on the other they are saying no tax is repayable. The latter person is my wife, and with her being the executor of the trust she has paid the trust tax in full at the right time. I presume I am going to have to send HMRC the paper copy of the return. Is there any other way to get them to repay the tax? Or is it that the tax is not repayable at all, since HMRC are asking for tax to be paid back with the first client?

This is income received from the estate of my wife's late mother. It is profits from property rentals where the trust has paid the tax. From 2017 to 2021 paper returns were filed and the tax refunds were made on time and the amounts were in the thousands. The 2022 and 2023 returns have both been filed electronically and on paper and the tax refunds were both in the hundreds. The relative got his 2022 refund but has been asked to pay his refund back to HMRC. My wife has not received either of her two refunds. The relative has no other income and is living off savings. My wife's only other income is her state pension, the trust income and state pension added together are less than the personal allowance. It has got me thinking that the HMRC are wanting the basic rate of tax increasing to 40% to fund this government's overspending!

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By More unearned luck
19th Mar 2024 17:34

If you are still seeking help, why don't you say what explanation HMRC gave for amending the self-assessments.

What software did you use to prepare and file the returns?

What have you been doing since December to advance these matters?

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Replying to More unearned luck:
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By Kosher
19th Mar 2024 19:00

More unearned luck wrote:

If you are still seeking help, why don't you say what explanation HMRC gave for amending the self-assessments.

What software did you use to prepare and file the returns?

What have you been doing since December to advance these matters?

No explanations given by HMRC, they've just ignored the attachments to the online return, using my agent's accountant, and also ignored the trust pages sent in on the paper returns.
The returns were done online on my agent's account.
Since December I have sent in paper returns as back up to the online returns but have had to chase client's ID for my AML file. I haven't much time to waste phoning up HMRC because we are moving house and I have 15 years of clutter to sort out prior to our move.
This takes me back to the 1970s and 1980s, when I was an accountant's assistant and it took HMRC 6 years to repay about £60,000 of tax to a millionaire client due to farming losses. The accountant there just wrote sarcastic letters to HMRC, but I think this got their goat up and made them more awkward.

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By More unearned luck
19th Mar 2024 19:23

I assume that you used HMRC's software. HMRC say:

"You cannot use this service to file your [client's] tax return online

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If [your client has] income from a trust..."

HMRC don't mention estate income but since estate income is declared on the trust and estate pages, I wonder how you declared the estate income (other than by attaching pages T1 and T2). Do say.

Did you tick box 6 on page TR2 of the returns? (If so, why didn't HMRC reject the returns as incomplete - as far as the computer is concerned pages T1 & T2 were missing?)

To be clear: The returns and HMRC computations before you pressed 'submit' showed refunds and subsequently HMRC issued tax calculations that showed either smaller refunds or liabilities and those calculations didn't (as they usually do) give reasons and say that you had 30 days to reject the amendment?

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Replying to More unearned luck:
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By Kosher
19th Mar 2024 19:41

The trust pages were attachments to the SAR and were sent to HMRC in paper form with the SA100. It is the income from the estate and I have completed the returns in 2022 and 2023 in exactly the same way as in how I did them for the returns from 2017 to 2021. All repayments were made from 2017 to 2021 and they repaid my wife's relative his 2022 repayment but not his 2023. My wife has not had her 2022 or her 2023 repayments.

I am beginning to think it might take another six months for them to correct the situation and make the repayments. No statements have been sent out by HMRC yet for 2023.

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Replying to More unearned luck:
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By Kosher
19th Mar 2024 19:42

The trust pages were attachments to the SAR and were sent to HMRC in paper form with the SA100. It is the income from the estate and I have completed the returns in 2022 and 2023 in exactly the same way as in how I did them for the returns from 2017 to 2021. All repayments were made from 2017 to 2021 and they repaid my wife's relative his 2022 repayment but not his 2023. My wife has not had her 2022 or her 2023 repayments.

I am beginning to think it might take another six months for them to correct the situation and make the repayments. No statements have been sent out by HMRC yet for 2023.

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Replying to More unearned luck:
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By Kosher
19th Mar 2024 20:04

Many thanks for your help, you did ask the same question about ticking box 6 on TR2 and I got mixed up between SA100 and SA107. Well HMRC software doesn't allow you to complete the box. I sent the trust pages on paper by themselves to HMRC, I will now try again with a paper version of the SA100 and that should do it; all earlier returns were sent in on paper, in their entirety, prior to 31 October. This year I have had the extra work of getting up dates of clients' IDs, setting up my AML file and applying for AMLS and setting up the ASA. ALL previous years were done by paper because I had no online system, my wife, her brother and me were the only returns I was doing and I was, and still am charging no fees for doing this work.

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By More unearned luck
19th Mar 2024 20:38

"I will now try again with a paper version of the SA100 and that should do it." No it won't. You must file a complete tax return, not just some of the pages. Filing some pages on one day and other pages on a different day is madness. You AML checked your wife?

I don't understand how HMRC changed your wife's SA. The version you filed electronically couldn't and didn't take into account the estate income, so how come the the figure in box 2 on page TC1 differs from HMRC's calc of the tax position?

For 2021/22 a repayment claim will be needed.

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By Kosher
19th Mar 2024 22:32

Well here we go again trying to get 2021/22 repayment before 5 April 2024 and then move on to get the 2022/23 refunds. Oh, the joy of doing tax returns for free; my wife's other brother goes to the trusts accountants and gets charged £300(excluding VAT per year).

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By Kosher
19th Mar 2024 22:34

The estate income was shown on the attachment, which HMRC chose to ignore or could not read.

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