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BIK on Double cab Pick up

Would it be difficult to say it's not used privately

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Sole director/shareholder client bought Nissan Navara Pick up Double cab. These are being marketed as much more attractive than ordinary vans, as you could happily use them privately without feeling embarrassed (so the blurb implies).

I think I should be sending in a P11d for the fixed rate BIK for both van and fuel, as it would be difficult to prove client doesn't use this privately.

But am I being unduly harsh? I'm just pretending to be HMRC though.
What's your view?
 

Replies (23)

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By Paul Crowley
26th May 2021 15:38

Pick up means that currently still a van not a car

We BIK one of these on a director mainly because he is just so honest, asked a question he will tell the truth.
He is also the only director that does not own a car outside of the business

Directors tend not to choose the transit as van of choice

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By paul.benny
26th May 2021 15:40

What evidence is there to support a claim that there is no private use? eg person has another vehicle(s); vehicle is kept at company premises; etc

Thought not.

And are you sure it qualifies as a van? (edit - cross posted with Paul C. If he says it's a van, I trust his expertise)

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Replying to paul.benny:
By SteveHa
27th May 2021 10:54

paul.benny wrote:

And are you sure it qualifies as a van? (edit - cross posted with Paul C. If he says it's a van, I trust his expertise)

TBH, I'm not convinced on this post Coca Cola. I suspect that HMRC will start questioning double cab pickups, before long, and it will need further tribunals to decide the issue.

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Replying to SteveHa:
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By Paul Crowley
27th May 2021 14:13

HMRC would need to change their opinion to do so.

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Replying to paul.benny:
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By Mr_awol
01st Jun 2021 11:30

paul.benny wrote:

What evidence is there to support a claim that there is no private use? eg person has another vehicle(s); vehicle is kept at company premises; etc

Thought not.

And are you sure it qualifies as a van? (edit - cross posted with Paul C. If he says it's a van, I trust his expertise)

To be fair, it doesn't need to be kept at the company premises, so no evidence required of that. And yes, twin cab pickups are (mostly at least) vans.

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By Calculatorboy
26th May 2021 15:42

as always depends on facts , does client have another private vehicle, does cab insurance cover business use only

I always use a letter of representation with accounts declaration confirming what client tells me about various things , it starts " I confirm...etc".

It covers you, in the event of hmrc enquiry or client claim , and it saves time being a bloodhound asking for insurance documents etc ,

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By Duggimon
26th May 2021 15:42

What's the client's view? I'd ask them if there's any private use, advise them of HMRC's approach to asking the same questions and then, provided I was happy, go with their answer.

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Replying to Duggimon:
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By Paul Crowley
26th May 2021 15:51

Agree
Critical that client understands what is being done and agrees the premise on which action has been taken.

The Warrior my client uses looks just a bit too pristine. No little dents or building material debris.

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Jason Croke
By Jason Croke
26th May 2021 15:49

Pickups are treated as commercial vehicles (vans) for VAT purposes, so you can reclaim the VAT on a pickup whereas you can't for a car.

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By Moonbeam
26th May 2021 16:21

Thank you for your speedy replies. I will tell client that HMRC may say later it's a car (CocaCola case) but as I know he uses it for his building business, we will say it's a van.
I'll point out to him that unless he his insurance docs refuse private use, we'll have a problem saying he never does use it privately.
But if he does have a car as well, that may be a way of saying he doesn't use the van privately.

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Replying to Moonbeam:
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By Paul Crowley
26th May 2021 17:24

Where vans are concerned, employee is permitted to drive to and from work, go to the supermarket on the way home and also do the occasional run to the tip.
I absolutely would consider that insurance should permit such journeys.

I tend to consider it a matter of scale.

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By Wycher
26th May 2021 17:31

I also think the definition as a van is based on the carrying capacity in the back so make sure he has not had a built in tool box installed or even in some cases a hard roof as this can reduce the available capacity below the limit and therefore potentially reclassify the van as a car.

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Danny Kent
By Viciuno
26th May 2021 17:53

Although not your question as it has been touched on by previous posters for the VAT reclaim make sure that the pick-up meets the 1 tonne rule. The addition of things like a cover for the back will reduce the payload of the vehicle and may push it below the 1 tonne payload threshold - if its high end will probably be ok however I've seen a few that just top 1t.

Can client install a tracker or use on of the mileage logger app things as evidence that there is no personal use?

(edit: apparently I take too long reading other tabs and to type as Wycher beat me to it!)

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Replying to Viciuno:
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By towat
01st Jun 2021 11:13

True a while ago I was looking at the specs on a VW pickup for a client and while most of the variants had a +1 Tonne payload the top of the range luxury version didn't, I'm guessing because of all the added extras, so worth checking.

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By The Dullard
26th May 2021 18:59

As Paul indicates, there doesn't have to be NO private use. The test's a little bit more generous than that. Private use, other than ordinary commuting, just needs to be insignificant.

You're not here to do HMRC's job. You're here to do your job, which is to advise your client properly. If he doesn't P11D it when he should there will be penalties down the line. If he P11Ds it when he doesn't need to, he will be paying unnecessary tax and the company will be paying unnecessary national insurance.

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By Tax Dragon
26th May 2021 21:34

My view is you should read HMRC's view (eg EIM22795) rather than second-guessing it.

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By More unearned luck
27th May 2021 12:35

Whether it is a car or van for bik purposes is currently governed by a (probably illegal*) HMRC concession in EIM23150, but given the Coca-Cola decision and HMRC's tendency to resile from their manuals when it suits them, I wouldn't place too much weight on the 1 tonne watershed. Pun unintended).

*See R (oao Wilkinson) v CIR for limitations on HMRC's power to give concessions.

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Replying to More unearned luck:
Psycho
By Wilson Philips
27th May 2021 13:59

Whilst it is quite true that HMRC are prone to changing thier minds, and ignoring their own guidance, when it suits them, I see no 'concession' in EIM23150. Rather, what we have is simply MRC's interpretation of the legislation. Whilst that interpretation might ultimately prove to be flawed, I would not go so far as saying that it is illegal.

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By meadowsaw227
27th May 2021 12:55

Unless they keep a mileage log I always P11d them

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Replying to meadowsaw227:
Routemaster image
By tom123
27th May 2021 13:03

Surely just for double cab posh pickups though, and not 200k mileage Vauxhall Vivaro vans?

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Replying to tom123:
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By meadowsaw227
08th Jun 2021 08:32

Yes just for double cabs unless I know they do not have a car as well

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By justsotax
27th May 2021 13:49

why wouldn't you just buy an actual van if it was only for private use.....because it doesn't look good when you head to the family gathering etc.....I guess there will always be the exception, but like the use of phones/computers etc....it is inevitable there will be private use.....and i suspect significantly more than the incidental amount (if the person was to record those times)....

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By towat
01st Jun 2021 11:08

Agreed, you can sometimes argue that a proper van has no private use but harder to do with a double can pickup imo.

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