Hi all don't know where else to post this question really. I have a problem with my book keeper. They have all my paperwork and were supposed to file my self assessment. However they never did do this and now I have begun to receive fines from HMR&C for failure to file. I have spoken to the tax office regarding this and ultimately they have said it is my responsibility and I need to sort it out with the book keeper. My bookkeeper has advised me they do not know where some of my paperwork is. I have asked that they give me back all they have and I will take everything to an accountant to get this sorted. They have now started avoiding me not answering calls etc, basically refusing to give me my paperwork back. Im now in limbo as how can I make someone give me something if they don't want to, I don't know where to go from here. Does anyone know where I stand legally in regards to forcing the book keeper to hand over my paperwork. The longer I am without it the more fines I am going to incur and I suspect ultimately I may even go to prison as everyone knows you don't mess with the tax man. Can anyone give me any advice?Many thanks
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I would go round there and
I would go round there and demand the paperwork.
Failing that i would contact a local solicitor.
Did you sign any contract with the bookkeeper!!
step by step approach
1) write to book keeper formally requesting paperwork.
2) go to solicitor and start civil proceedings, or go around and demand paperwork. Becareful not to overstep the mark here and cause criminal issues for yourself by over verbal or physical. Ie. They call police.
3) look at the local market and appoint the right person to do the job right. This may cost more than you want or expect however things can be done.
4) contact bank and request duplicate bank statements, same with credit cards etc.
5) write a list of all the documents you believe you passed to the book keeper and what documents you may be able to recover elsewhere. Ie if you do computerised sales invoices, reprint.
6) hand all this information to that appointed account and when asked provide full explanations to all questions. They will do their best to help.
7) that accountant can produce a tax return with estimate and provisions based on all the information and explanations gicenAND can provide further detaila to hmrc in the other information box highlighting what estimations have bern provided and why.
8) wait and hope you do not gey a tax investigation, but knowing in the meantime you have supplied the best figures possible.
9) keep chasing for the records from the book keeper and document everything. If you get anything further you can submit an amended tax return.
10) lastly but not least, thank the acxountant for helping out wirh this very difficult situation and make sure you pay them for their services rendered.
I don't think i have missed anything but just sitting on not submittkng a tax return isn't going to do you any good.
Do you owe the bookkeeper money
This all sounds a bit strange to me. If you believe she/he does not know where the paperwork is, then what our you going to achieve by going to a solicitor especially when it is family. Surely Solicitors will make the situation worse. This maybe why they are avoiding your calls. I would if a family member put a solicitor on to me. If this is the case then ring up the HM and explain the paperwork is mislaid. Your always best not to use family and friends for services as their always seems to be confusion about the price except when someone agrees to pay the full price and does not ask for a discount.
Maybe just write a letter to the family member because it sounds like they are annoyed with you also.
I was not meaning to upset you
HI
I was trying to see both sides of the story as it is actually very common when people in families deal which other. I just wondered if their was a way around it and why they were behaving this way, something as gone wrong along the way for both parties. I also think they are your family and surely their might be a way to resolve it between the two of you only and maybe he or she could help in explaining to the HMRC together without other members of family telling you to go to a solictors .
I just thought that with other family members getting involved they may have dug their heels in. After all you could end up starting a war within your family where the only person who makes money is the solictor . In one of the above post there was very good advice how to reconstruct your records .
I understand from your post you do not think so, but I just wondered was it worth another try as she/he is still holding on to some of your records. Sorry if I have misunderstood
Penalties can be very harsh these days.
I agree fully with the points outlined above but the outstanding return needs filing ASAP to limit penalties whic may be on a daily basis.
First thing I'd be doing is filing a provisional return with a realistic profit to stop those penalties!
Ned, you shouldn't apologise....
.... for highlighting perhaps the most important thing to do. the key, and you have highlighted it in a far better way than me, is putting in a return with realistic profits.
Try this approach
Your situation is serious, but if you could just get the paperwork back it would be very helpful. I am guessing that your bookkeeper may have had a mental breakdown, just had too much work, or something like that and you might be able to play on her feelings of guilt.
I suggest you write a letter to your relative expressing concern about whether she's overstretched, or not feeling well ( your other relatives can give you the lowdown here). Then make it clear that it would be so helpful of her to give you back your paperwork, no matter what state it is in as soon as possible. You could collect it this week if she could name a day and time, and come with another relative who she knows and trusts.
You have been advised that you will have to start court action if she cannot help you, and you really don't want her to have a court judgement against her, as it could make her personal and business dealings quite difficult. Tell her that If she is going through hard times at present it will be much easier for her to give you back your papers soon. (I doubt if you are the only one chasing for paperwork).
Try not to write in an angry way, more in a way that you are helping her avoid a judgement at this stage. (You may of course want to sue her later anyway for fees you've paid but keep that under your hat.)
The whole tone of the letter should be that you're helping her to sort things out by giving you back your paperwork and you're concerned about her health. In your case I might want to buy a punchbag to deal with very real anger.
Take all the other advice given by others. If my suggestion doesn't work, at least you've given it your best shot.
bookkeeper defends own corner
Go on a bookkeeping course yourself and see if you can discern the answer through your own experiences. Failing that, a couple of stiff drinks may work.
bookkeeper or accountant
Simples!
Prospective clients should look to professionals for advice but more importantly - get paid for it!
I don't see free advice from a solicitor or a marketer for instance.
The apple cart is already upset
but all of the apples are in your lap! HMRC have been forced to accept that reliance on an unreliable agent is a reasonable excuse for lateness.
I strongly advise that you get a dependable accountant/tax adviser to take on your case even in the absence of your accounting records. They will take up the cudgels with HMRC and should reduce the amount of heat you get.
I am puzzled as to how a solicitor will help. If your family member has genuinely lost your records then this can't help. If alternatively she is embarrased/in denial/ having a breakdown she's not gong to be helped by additional pressure. Can't you call on her immediate relations (parent, spouse, etc) to help you out?
Pay the going rate???QUALIF
It looks like a classic case of getting someone to do a job and he/she is your buddie and family member. You should know better. Any work not done properly you will get a kick in your teeth. Family and feud war.
Should just go to proper qualified accountant to do the job whether they are your family member or not at least they will have to comply with the Institute or Association's rule and guidelines?
Also no need to grumble too much. Like some of the previous comments and they are good advice for free mate.
No need to go all the way to the Court.
Hope you sort it out yourself if not find a QUALIFIED ACCOUNTANT. FGS
Where are you?
We've all had to deal with such situations at some time - as have HMRC. Firstly; do you owe her any money? Where are you based ? What do you do? Is this your first year? Are you a sole trader? It probably would not cost too much to get copies of Bank Statements, Credit Card Statements, Supplier records, etc.. Answer these and I'm sure some friendly local Accountant will get you out of the mire - as best he can with incomplete records, and get the support of HMRC (for a while). Waste of time going legal. You're not in a position to "go around". Move on and get the job done.
get a proper bookkeeper
As a Certified Bookkeeper I am paid to sort these problems out.
The issue sounds like a domestic, but will prove expensive with HMRC involvement.
Bookkeeping is an integral part of your business and you should use professional, insured bookkeepers. Families are always the worst business arrangement
kjcbookkeeping.co.uk
Ok I have read above
Accept it that you have made a poor decision as to assistance for yor Tax REturn.
1 Write by special delivery with a nice letter but stating that you know longer need his/her services
2 Appoint an accountant and explain the position.
3 Get as much data as specified above ungently and give it to accountant.
4 Offer to pay part of his fee upfront
5 He/she will use what you have given to them and submit a tax return using estimates as mentioned above.
6 Never use a family member as there is no comeback if it all goes wrong
cjenks - I agree
I have just had a rather gruelling day and have returned to the office to scan all the posts concerning the above. Perhaps I should just ignore the majority but I would like to say I completely agree with "if you don't have anything constructive to say don't say anything at all I think a lot of forum users should take heed of this" as I often feel some use it as a marketing tool which is not what this is about. It is simply helping others with advice and not being judgemental. We probably all find HMRC annoying (I am obviously being polite) but we still need to try our best to assist with the knowledge we have at our disposal. Think on.
We have a lot of these type posts ...
... without being snobbish, a bookkeeper is not an accountant and getting them to handle Ta Returns and accounts filing is akin to getting an electrician to plaster your ceiling.
Get an accountant, tell your bookkeeper they have been appointed and let the accountant write for what information they need (having provided them as much duplicate paperwork as you can)
This way you take the personal/family element out the equation and put it on a professional peer to peer basis between bookkeeper and accountant.
You would be best ...
... asking a lawyer to get a court order demanding the return.
If that doesn't work you can obtain a writ of execution to enforce the court order.
This is legal stuff though, we are accountants, you say you have learned, the lesson is get the right person for the job - seek a lawyer!
Also, you say she is a certified book-keeper - have you approached her certifiying body/complained to them?
The very first post suggested seeking legal advice!!
According to ACCA, 'where the members work is to prepare accounting records for a client, the records belong to the client.'
I think there is no question that these documents legally belong to you, does your sister-in-law have anyone else working for her that you could ask to intervene? can you speak to your brother about it?
As horrible as it sounds, you have to treat this is a 'business problem', therefore I think it would be best for you to send a recorded letter to ask her to deliver the papers by a certain date, stating that if the papers have not been received, then you will have to instigate legal proceedings, and mention that any fees that may have been due will not be paid until a satisfactory outcome has been achieved.
It is very hard to detach family and business, so I would try and reassure your brother that it is not personal against him and his wife, just against the business.
Good luck.
Excellent ...
... hopefully my advice was confined to the way forward.
You must pickout the salient advice and ignore the rest. Do not take it personally, remember, although you wrote the query, we write to the wider audience, so that others will benefit and avoid a similar situation -we are not trying to make you feel small (well, speaking personally anyway) but it is an ill wind indeed if it blows nobody any good.
I am not sure why you are
hooked up on getting the papers back. Unless to are running a business I would recommend that you go for the easier option of approaching banks and employer etc for copy documents.
But in any case some advice above mentioned dealing with it professionally. ie Appoint an accountant and tell him the problem. It may be that a professional letter will do the trick.
Going for a court order seeing a solicitor etc is not going to help with family matters so at this point I can see little merit in following this course of action.
Good Luck and let us know what transpires
@ Paul ...
... why would you have a bookkeeper if you weren't running a business?
Bank statements all well and good, but difficult if you don't have supporting invoices/cheque stubs etc - even more so if VAT registered.
Bank statements will allow a provisional return to be made, but to produce an accurate return you will need the supporting paperwork.
No one was been `judgemental
Hi
I find it regretful that the poster has taken the tone he has. I would also like to say that ICB bookkeepers are certified to complete tax returns at a certain level if they complete the tax return module. Clients should check whether they are using an accountant or bookkeeper.
Nobody was bashing you they were trying to give you advice as most people find that working with family and friends can be a nightmare. If she is certified and cannot be "arsed" then report her to her professional body end of. If you have a case they will take action nothing to with weather their family or not.
To be honest it comes across that you do not want to take advice
"if you don't have anything constructive to say don't say anything at all. I think a lot of forum users should take heed of this."
I would like to say I regret posting or trying to help you as I did in good fate. I do not think it is unreasonable for forum users to look at two sides of the story. I also think you should apply the same thought to your own posts . I agree with Old Grey accountant posts are for wider reading and so many accountants and businesses have been burnt when involved in families.
I found this posting as I am in a similar situation right now and was looking for advice, what I found was very upsetting. cjenks asked a question on a forum that is set up for that very reason, what they got instead was a lot of flack. It started from the begining with people judging and making comments about cjenks personal and family life that were not asked for. All that was needed was for someone, anyone to give advice on what cjenks next steps should be and if there is any legal recourse for obtaining missing paperwork from a bookkeeper. Speaking as one of the "masses" that you're trying to reach and "help out" I can honestly say that no relevant or helpful information was given with regards to the question.
Missing records
If you must take legal action, the most appropriate avenue would probably be to file a claim in the Small Claims court. You can represent yourself here. Put a high enough value on the missing papers.
I agree with...
...Sarah Douglas. This is a forum and is for everyone to read. By telling a poster that they have been foolish may help another reader from making the same mistake. Please do not take these postings personally - they are just general advice on a forum. You are not paying for one to one advice.
You said that your sister has lost the paperwork and then you say she refuses point blank to return it ... well how can she return it if its lost? You also say she can't be bothered to deal it anymore, in that case you have been given plenty of advice on how to proceed. Good luck.
Appoint someone else
If you are torn between asserting your rights and managing family relationships appoint an accountant to act on your behalf. It wouldn't seem as heavy as a solicitor's involvement and would prevent communication from appearing 'personal'. Better for you and your brother's relationship that if absolutely necessary someone else tips off her institute.
PS. For what it's worth I think your tone has been measured and I don't detect an attitude that others appear to.
@ Alpha Papa
PS. For what it's worth I think your tone has been measured and I don't detect an attitude that others appear to.
?, if it looks like a hissy fit, and sounds like a hissy fit ...
And it is all very well everyone standing on their high horse saying you should have done this you should have done that, you should never use family etc etc etc but i did so lesson learnt. Basically by law can i force her to hand over my papers???????
Hence ...
This is a forum and is for everyone to read. By telling a poster that they have been foolish may help another reader from making the same mistake. Please do not take these postings personally - they are just general advice on a forum. You are not paying for one to one advice.
Which best sums up points made by Sarah Douglas and myself amongst others.
Also
Get an accountant, tell your bookkeeper they have been appointed and let the accountant write for what information they need (having provided them as much duplicate paperwork as you can)
This way you take the personal/family element out the equation and put it on a professional peer to peer basis between bookkeeper and accountant.
Yee-ha ...
... Yippee Ki-yay ...
Sounds like a plan, round up the gang and go rustle us some paperwork :o)
May be we should be on this thread
https://www.accountingweb.co.uk/anyanswers/question/how-can-i-compete-cowboy-accountants
Can you be "arsed"
We all sympathise with your predicament cjenks and you have been given sensible, constructive advice as to how you can deal with this situation.
Now YOU have to DO IT.
Continuing to post will not get HMRC off your case nor retreive your paperwork, no one is going to wave a magic wand.
As we are all taking advice from Granny, mine used to tell me "if you find yourself in a hole you cant get out of stop digging"
are we missing something here ?
Well either she has the documents or she hasn't ? Which is it?
If she has and won't return them, then why is that? Money, family falling out ??
If she has them and there is no reason she should not return them, then get round there and plan to stay until she does hand them over or calls the police, then explain to them that she has property that belongs to you and won't return, which is theft.
To hell with the family relationship, this seems to have broken down if it has got to this point and your brother won't intervene on your behalf. The Revenue are going to fine you regardless.
If all else fails do the best you can from the information you have or can get from other sources. Assume the data has been lost, burnt etc. The solution is easier than you seem to be making out.
I think...
I think Jekyll and Hyde at the second reply down gave great constructive advice. I added a bit more further down but Jekyll had pretty much covered it.
Other than that I do actually kind of agree with what you're saying and this has been one of my gripes over the years with the forum.
Why don't you outline your issue and I'll try to assist
There are very few professional forums
Where professionals give full free advice to non-professionals. AWeb is one of the few, and its real purpose is for professionals to help each other, but many non-accountants come on here looking for free advice, and they usually get plenty of really good free advice, as has the OP.
Why pick on the negatives when there are plenty of positives?