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Brexit 2

Ever Closer Union

Didn't find your answer?

It is a pity that the original thread lost its way due to inappropriate comments, some of which I saw, and the moderators were right to step in.

This referendum is one of the most important votes that most of us will take and it is important to have constructive debate from both sides, so I think we can try again with this.

Can we start again first by examining the undisputed ultimate goal of the EU Project  .. Ever Closer Union .. what does this mean?

I know that David Cameron has apparently opted us out of this, but what for, why belong to this club when you are not happy to go along with its very reason to exist. Why join a football club when your main interest is rugby?

Please follow the moderator guidelines here by keeping your coments civil and if posible, looking at how the result of either outcome would affect the Accountancy Profession.

 

Replies (146)

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By Tim Vane
05th Jun 2016 12:24

I'm not sure your arguments really work.

I don't play cricket. I don't really watch it either, though I do vaguely follow the fortunes of the England team. But our local cricket club has the cheapest bar, a thriving social membership, and a more friendly family atmosphere than any of our local pubs. I'm a member for those reasons.

Being a part of a club often has many benefits that are peripheral to the purpose of the club itself. Our reasons for wanting to be part of the EU may not be completely in line with the stated goals of the union, but it does not mean that there is a lot to gain from being in it, and being in it may well be better than being out of it. So I would reject your argument on that basis.

Actually I will be voting to leave, but not because I have a problem with the direction the EU is going in. I think the union is in for some very hard times over the next few years, and perhaps rather selfishly I would rather we stepped back and let those countries more inline with its idealogy bear the brunt of the difficulties. As a nation, our own ambivalence toward Europe surely does not help either them or us at this time.

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Out of my mind
By runningmate
05th Jun 2016 12:56

In contrast to Tim Vane, I am very much in agreement with the OP - why join a football / rugby club - pay a hefty membership fee & agree to abide by most of the membership rules - if you have no interest in football / rugby & would rather play golf.
(There is something in common here with the question - why join a professional accountancy body if you don't wish to abide by its rules?)
Added to that it seems to me that any talk of reforming the EU to change it into something more to our tastes is simply self-delusion. We have as much chance as the OP would of getting the football / rugby club to place a few holes & bunkers in their pitch to accommodate golfers.
I do think that 'ever closer union' has some logic to it. It is ridiculous to suppose that 28 independent countries can work together productively - like a company board with 28 vocal members each with their own agenda. But with monetary, fiscal & political union the European project becomes workable. Whether monetary, fiscal & political union of the 28 members is desirable - the United States of Europe - is another question. So too is whether the USE would be economically strong or weak.
RM

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Out of my mind
By runningmate
05th Jun 2016 13:12

I was chatting amiably with a Bremainer the other day.
His view was straightforward - though not one which any UK politician would espouse publicly.
The UK, he opined, is 'ducked' (I think that's what he said).
We have no politicians of stature or integrity at Westminster, they are only capable of sound bites & following the latest focus group trends. Better to have some randomers in Brussels in charge than the Westminster lot.
The UK's economy - particularly manufacturing, construction and basic activities like coal, oil & power are all 'ducked' too and / or have been sold off to johnny foreigner.
British anglo-saxon 'workers' don't give a toss about their work or their duty to employers & customers - it's only first or second generation immigrants who keep the UK functioning at all.
If we Bremain we can piggy back on / get carried along by the Germans & will be reasonably (but undeservedly) OK.
The UK's world influence has to do with history from 50 years or more ago & our willingness to spend our money buying US weapons & joining in on US wars. But the US wants us to stay in the EU so we had better do what they say.
On that analysis everything points to Bremain.
A fair point?
RM

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By Comptable
05th Jun 2016 13:47

Tim - if we "step back" it won't be for a few years it will be for a very very long time.

If we vote out it won't be us that get to decide on what terms we would have in the future as regards trade with the EU. We would not get to chose which model; Norway; Switzerland; Albania, etc.

The leave campaign claim we'd get a better deal than any of the EU's other neighbours, based on the fact that their trade with us matters as we are quite rich. It does. But not enough to persuade them to allow Brexit lto ook like an attractive model for eg Denmark or the Netherlands. The other 27 members would decide our terms.

We'd have very limited influence. And then if we do manage to strike a deal both sides are prepared to accept, we'd be dependent on 38 different European parliaments to approve it for it to come into force. Yes 38, as there are lots of small sort of sub-parliaments in eg Belgium who will have to approve it and who will have federalist MPs who take issue with our decision to walk out, and who will probably not be too bothered about the trade aspects.

This gest worse when we have a post out vote decline and our trade with the EU reduces and we become even less important.

But assume we get a Norway deal - we then have to abide by almost all EU regulations and we have to pay like they do. Norway pays €107.50 a head and we pay €139 a head a year. So I will save about £25 a year.

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Replying to Comptable:
By Tim Vane
05th Jun 2016 22:17

@Comptable - this is exactly the sort of scare nonsense that the remain camp have been spouting for months. You are entitled to those opinions but I have to say that as far as I am concerned that is all just utter utter tosh. Frankly it's doomsday statements like this that do the most harm to the remain camp - they just can't be taken seriously.

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Replying to Tim Vane:
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By NDH
07th Jun 2016 09:35

Comptable's view might be the extreme end but do you really think it's realistic that once a country has decided to leave the EU the remaining members would agree to a deal that is better for that country? I'd have thought even getting a similar deal would be problematic.

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Tornado
By Tornado
05th Jun 2016 14:41

I think it is fair to say that all we can debate at the moment are opinions as to what will happen if we stay or leave. No one really knows what will happen if we leave although we do have a pretty good idea of what will happen if we stay, and that may be enough for some people to decide that they want to leave.

The UK is itself a Union and we have a similar sort of situation with many people in Scotland wanting to leave this Union and a good few people in Wales wanting to leave as well.

Northern Ireland is a somewhat different matter, so I will not comment on that situation.

Ever Closer Union, therefore, seems to be something that some members of UK do not want either, even with devolved power already in place. How will the tax system actually work with a different rate of tax in Scotland already. Surely one rate for all is the ideal model.

I would say that the voting decisions we make will be based very much on how the EU Project affects us personally. Whilst it might seem morally right to argue one way or another for the masses, (our children, workers rights, etc) deep down our decision will be a personal one and it could be argued that those with the most to gain (or perhaps retain) will want to stay in, and those who see more to gain outside of the EU Project will vote leave, undaunted by the hell that is promised if we do.

There is no Right or Wrong here, just a personal decision to make.

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By Staffordshire Accountant
05th Jun 2016 15:43

The remain camp need to get used to the idea that they are going to lose. So far they have forecast economic Armageddon, the outbreak of world war three, increased mortgages, they have used Britain’s most forgettable PM, John (Mogadon) Major to bore us, discredited nobodies like Alex Salmond (the man who wants to tear the UK apart) have been dragged out to threaten us, they have claimed that Brexit would affect the whole world’s economies, they even trotted out a “green” MP who claimed leaving the EU would in some way lead to global warming.
They claim we don’t know what will happen if we leave. Perhaps not in detail, but we DO know what will happen if we remain. Our borders will be open to all, and regardless of any claims to the contrary by the remain camp, we will become a minor state in the United States of Europe, run by Brussels, dominated by Germany, with Britain as a small offshore island rather like Hawaii is to the United States (but without the grass skirts and sunshine).

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By Ruddles
05th Jun 2016 16:32

What happened to the constructive debate? I fear this thread is heading the same way as the other.

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RLI
By lionofludesch
05th Jun 2016 18:32

We can step back in any time we want. They need us more than we need them.

I recall folk saying that exports would become a thing of the past if we didn't join the Euro. There was no perceptible effect on the volume of exports.

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Francois
By Francois Badenhorst
06th Jun 2016 10:07

I spoke to a Scottish friend recently, a young person who had voted no in the independence referendum. She told me that she would rather be a part of an independent Scotland in the EU, than Britain outside of it.

This is anecdotal, of course. She could well be a complete aberration.

But it's an intriguing thought. There's a very strong 'remain' sentiment in Scotland.

Do we think that Scots will accept being dragged out of the EU against their will?

When in history have Scottish people calmly acquiesced to being subjected to their more populous southern neighbour's will?

And as a result are we willing to accept the potential end of The UK as we know it to secure Brexit?

In regards to the the scare tactics used by remain, Tim. I agree with you, it's been squalid. But the other side hasn't been much better. Let's not forget the horrendous "£350m" lie - and yes, it is a flat out lie - emblazoned across the Brexit tour bus.

Scare tactics aside, for me the question is do I feel European? Do I enjoy feeling a part of the European family? Do I enjoy the privileges - of travel, of work and of many European laws that protect me as a worker - that it affords me? And most importantly, do I feel the admittedly troubled European project is worth salvaging?

For me, as a young person living in The UK, the answer to all those questions is yes.

Brexit would tell me these things aren't at risk. But is that for sure? They seem to rely on this quaint notion that politics is completely rational; related I assume to the idea of the "[***] economicus" that dominated 20th century economics. "They wouldn't do that, Germany needs to sell us BMWs".

Unfortunately, politics, economics and people are frequently punitive and irrational. Do we honestly believe that The EU members will reward us for trampling over something we - as a continent - have been building for decades?

Well, what about Norway? They're outside The EU, I hear. Yes, but they're in the EEA, they're in the Schengen area, they are subject to freedom of movement of workers, they contribute to the bloc.

The Norwegian fantasy needs to die, they are a de-facto member of The EU. And they chose this status from the start. They didn't turn around, decades later, and say, "you know what lads, I don't fancy it".

I look at the privileges I enjoy now as young European, I see something worth hanging on to. I look at what Boris is offering, all I hear are vague assurances.

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Replying to Francois Badenhorst:
Out of my mind
By runningmate
06th Jun 2016 10:15

Whilst respecting your opinions, I think the majority of British people would not say that they "feel European".
And I have to say that my view is that the European project cannot be salvaged - the wheels are coming off!
RM

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Replying to runningmate:
Francois
By Francois Badenhorst
06th Jun 2016 11:25

runningmate wrote:

Whilst respecting your opinions, I think the majority of British people would not say that they "feel European".
And I have to say that my view is that the European project cannot be salvaged - the wheels are coming off!
RM

Hi Running Mate, thanks for the comment. That's generational, I think. I will tell you - and I'm very open to the fact that I live in liberal, young Bristol bubble - my friends and acquaintances all class themselves as British and European.

The one doesn't cancel out the other.

Why can't the European project be salvaged? It has maintained peace in a continent that spent millenia murdering one another. Peace and co-operation are always worth saving.

And this isn't scare mongering, I'm not saying we'll be at war with Germany. But I am saying that ignoring the EU's achievements totally is very unfair.

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Replying to Francois Badenhorst:
By ShirleyM
06th Jun 2016 11:45

I would say the opposite. The undemocratic nature of the EU is promoting conflict within all the EU countries. the bigger the EU gets the more bullying it's elites become. We longer see the 'carrot' but we frequently see the 'stick' with threats of this that and the other emanating from the EU. The EU, USA and Turkey are spoiling for war with Russia. Brexit may just save the whole of Europe from WWIII.

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Replying to ShirleyM:
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By NDH
07th Jun 2016 09:37

I think either side trying to insinuate WWIII would happen are scaremongering and are struggling to come up with compelling arguments for their viewpoint.

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Replying to NDH:
By ShirleyM
08th Jun 2016 21:45

Please pardon my sarcasm. I was making a sarcy remark to refute Camerons warning that Brexit may cause WWIII.

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Replying to Francois Badenhorst:
Hallerud at Easter
By DJKL
06th Jun 2016 14:29

"

Why can't the European project be salvaged? It has maintained peace in a continent that spent millenia murdering one another. Peace and co-operation are always worth saving.

"

A non proven linked causality:

1.my neighbour and I are both members of the same club.
2.my neighbour and I never fight

ergo, my neighbour and I never fight because we are members of the same club. (Flawed construct, may be true, may not be true)

Maybe you are correct but you offer no evidence, and frankly, imho (but each to his own),the evidence better points to NATO rather than EU re past preservation of peace; I really do not recall much EU input re the former Yugoslavia, do you?

I could probably make an argument that remaining in the EU is more likely to lead to conflict, something along the lines everyone knows the purpose of a garden shed is to give a safe haven to retreat into during periods of strife, if we do not have our own shed what then, constant bickering?

Some sweeping assumptions re conflict resolution but the point is the EU itself could well be the point of friction that creates conflict, unhappy marriages held together past their sell by date can end up with an even more hostile break up than those which have a managed exit.

I am not saying you are incorrect but you are guilty of the same crime as you accuse others, a leading statement (assumption) without then leading supporting evidence, and I am afraid any such argumentative construct does tend to fall if the foundation block is flawed.

The more I have read re both sides the more I have come to the conclusion that the future cannot be predicted for either remain or leave, there is no correct answer.

(I am glad I took a humanities degree, years of practice sitting on a very sharp fence is a perfect training for deciding what to do)

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Replying to Francois Badenhorst:
RLI
By lionofludesch
06th Jun 2016 11:22

Francois Badenhorst wrote:

Do I enjoy the privileges - of travel, of work and of many European laws that protect me as a worker - that it affords me? And most importantly, do I feel the admittedly troubled European project is worth salvaging?

For me, as a young person living in The UK, the answer to all those questions is yes.

Brexit would tell me these things aren't at risk. But is that for sure? They seem to rely on this quaint notion that politics is completely rational; related I assume to the

I look at the privileges I enjoy now as young European, I see something worth hanging on to. I look at what Boris is offering, all I hear are vague assurances.

What priveleges ? Is no-one outside the EU permitted to travel now? Do I need to hang on to the right to work in Latvia ? It's of no interest to me either way.

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Replying to lionofludesch:
Francois
By Francois Badenhorst
06th Jun 2016 11:27

To you maybe, but its certainly of interest to the over one million Britons living and working in The EU. Where will they go? And why does your lack of desire to go abroad need to be imposed on others?

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Replying to Francois Badenhorst:
RLI
By lionofludesch
06th Jun 2016 11:37

Or, turning the question around, why should I be burdened with EU membership to allow others to travel ?

Want to work abroad ? Get a visa.

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Replying to lionofludesch:
Francois
By Francois Badenhorst
06th Jun 2016 11:52

While this idea of visas is a new thing. Britain only implemented border controls in 1906. In Europe, freedom of movement has always been the standard.

So why should my generation not get to enjoy these privileges? Why should we have to get visas? I see this in the economy as well, it's always the young that are punished.

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Replying to Francois Badenhorst:
RLI
By lionofludesch
06th Jun 2016 13:05

And that was the EU which allowed free travel prior to 1906?

Is a Union essential to travel?

I don't want to get hung on the travel aspect. The EU isn't just about free travel, it's about a package of things and you have to take them as a package - or leave them.

The EU needs our trade - whether we're members or not.

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Replying to lionofludesch:
Francois
By Francois Badenhorst
06th Jun 2016 14:31

No, but a post-Brexit Europe is different from a pre-1906 one. My point is that this anti-free movement sentiment is a new one, an aberration.

But let's talk trade then. 16% of Eurozone exports go to the UK. A large figure, sure. But in case of Brexit, that'd decrease and we'd probably be overtaken by the likes of the US and Japan. That 16% figure would decrease.

The UK's exports to the Eurozone is 45% of our export total. So this idea that the world's biggest economic bloc needs us is ludicrous.

Sure, they'd rather want us to be part of the club - the UK's economy is a big part of The EU - but just saying, "oh, we're indispensable" and hoping for the best, isn't really good enough.

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Replying to Francois Badenhorst:
Locutus of Borg
By Locutus
06th Jun 2016 15:00

Francois Badenhorst wrote:

The UK's exports to the Eurozone is 45% of our export total. So this idea that the world's biggest economic bloc needs us is ludicrous.

Sure, they'd rather want us to be part of the club - the UK's economy is a big part of The EU - but just saying, "oh, we're indispensable" and hoping for the best, isn't really good enough.

I don't think we are indispensable to each other. Both can happily co-exist without the influence of the other.

Post Brexit, trade will continue with the UK and EU countries, with or without WTO tariffs. Some large businesses will choose to migrate to the EU (and that's a shame), whilst others will thrive in the UK with less regulation. The UK will be free to negotiate trade deals with the 94% of the world's population that isn't in the EU, which will be of benefit to the UK.

Don't forget, also, that the vast majority of the economic activity in the UK has never had anything to do with the EU and would continue unaffected.

I, for instance, have never had any clients based in the EU and few of my clients have any significant business with the EU.

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Replying to Francois Badenhorst:
RLI
By lionofludesch
06th Jun 2016 16:31

Francois Badenhorst wrote:

But let's talk trade then. 16% of Eurozone exports go to the UK. A large figure, sure. But in case of Brexit, that'd decrease and we'd probably be overtaken by the likes of the US and Japan. That 16% figure would decrease.

If I may be uncouth for a moment, sez who ?

Shifty Dave Cameron?

Your "facts" are pure speculation. And why should Japan and the US be better placed than us ? When did they join the EU ?

This is laughable.......

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Replying to Francois Badenhorst:
Hallerud at Easter
By DJKL
06th Jun 2016 14:35

Francois Badenhorst wrote:

While this idea of visas is a new thing. Britain only implemented border controls in 1906. In Europe, freedom of movement has always been the standard.

So why should my generation not get to enjoy these privileges? Why should we have to get visas? I see this in the economy as well, it's always the young that are punished.

Perhaps, but per Shakespeare Henry V was possibly using passports:

"That he which hath no stomach to this fight,
Let him depart; his passport shall be made,
And crowns for convoy put into his purse;
We would not die in that man's company"
-)

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Locutus of Borg
By Locutus
06th Jun 2016 10:15

Trying to marry up Brexit with the Accounting Profession ...

To me, the EU as it is now is analogous to an accounting franchise such as Tax Assist.

It costs a lot of money, there are some benefits to being a member of a big club and you are contractually obliged to do certain things, such as trade from a shop front within a certain number of years.

As with all analogies, it doesn't fit perfectly, as in the EU there is free movement of people between member states, which would be the equivalent of workers from other TaxAssist offices turning up on your door one morning and sitting down at a spare desk.

As for "ever closer union", that is analogous to TaxAssist becoming a full blown accounting partnership where the partners agree to share the profits and losses and junior partners have even less personal control over things.

TaxAssist undoubtedly works for some people, but it is not something that would interest me. Same with the EU.

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Tornado
By Tornado
06th Jun 2016 11:06

With regard to the £350 million per week, perhaps this is better considered from the point of view of an Accountant.

As I see it, there is a requirement to pay about £350 million per week to the EU Project as a calculated contribution. This is an agreed liability and in accounting terms, this is payable regardless of any other arrangements. As part of the current deal, some of that contribution is discounted and paid back as a rebate. Then, at its discretion, the EU Project makes payments specifically allocated to certain activities in the UK.

The £350,000 is a liability regardless of rebates and money given back to UK projects, so if there was one week outstanding at the UK year end, then £350 million would show on the UK Balance Sheet as a liability. The rebate would appear as a debtor (if it was verified as correct) and the other monies that the EU Project might give back to UK projects would not appear on the Balance Sheet at all as they are discretionary payments made by the EU Project to specific activities in the UK.

It is really a matter of identifying liabilities and debtors and as far as I can see, the £350 million per week is a verified liability. The rebate is agreed but could be reviewed by the EU Project (as indeed our contribution could be) at any time and other monies from the EU Project are at the discretion of the EU Project and are not under our control.

So is there an over-riding liability to pay the EU Project £35o million per week regardless? I think there is.

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Replying to Tornado:
By ShirleyM
06th Jun 2016 11:48

Nitpicking I know, but it is actually £361m per week and we can be sure it will never go down, only up, and up, and up, etc.

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Replying to ShirleyM:
Locutus of Borg
By Locutus
06th Jun 2016 14:38

I don't really understand why there is quite such a fuss over the £350m (rounded gross figure).

Whether you use the rounded gross of £350m, the actual gross of £361m or the net, which I believe is something like £180m, they are all big numbers which it is worthy for the UK public to enquire whether we get value for money.

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Replying to Locutus:
Red Leader
By Red Leader
06th Jun 2016 18:20

Even the gross figure of £350m is only just over 2% of UK public expenditure.

www.economicshelp.org/blog/142/economics/what-does-the-government-spend-...

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Tornado
By Tornado
06th Jun 2016 12:13

Francois Badenhorst wrote -
"So why should my generation not get to enjoy these privileges? Why should we have to get visas? I see this in the economy as well, it's always the young that are punished."
It is interesting that you think it is always the young that are punished just because you might have to get a visa like everyone else.
There are current proposals to allow the people of Turkey to enter and roam the Schengen area without Visas even though Turkey is not an EU Project member.
Whilst at this stage no one knows if such an arrangement could be agreed fort the UK, it seems perfectly possible to me.
Also note that even if you required a visa to enter Europe, you would only have to enter at one point and then you can travel freely within the Schengen area as easily as you can today.

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By The Highlander
06th Jun 2016 12:35

I'm Scottish, I voted to keep Scotland within Britain and I will be voting to leave the EU. I think painting a picture that the vast majority of Scotland want to remain within the EU and have strong feeling on the subject is false. I expect SNP to paint this picture as they believe with a Brexit it will give them an opportunity for another referendum if they can argue that Britain took a route Scotland didn't wish. I think the majority of Scotland, much like the UK, have no strong feelings on the subject and a small majority will vote to remain simply because people vote for the statues quo when in doubt.

As for VISA and travel concerns we're paying a hefty price for a small privilege. Requiring a VISA doesn't stop you from holidaying or working abroad. I have friends working in the US, Australia, China and Japan to name a few and thousands of Brits holiday every year in locations that require a VISA. It's not a huge deal, you might as well say I'm never going to be able to travel again because I require a passport. I wouldn't be surprised if freedom of travel within the EU remains for British passports anyway and it'll just be our ability to work that causes an issue. As for those with jobs in Europe already I think a working VISA will be very easily obtained.

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Tornado
By Tornado
06th Jun 2016 13:13

Francois Badenhorst wrote -

"Why can't the European project be salvaged? It has maintained peace in a continent that spent millenia murdering one another. Peace and co-operation are always worth saving."

Sorry Francois for picking up another of your points, but they are worth a reply.

You clearly acknowledge that the EU Project needs salvaging and I can empathise with this sentiment, but we are not in a position to do the salvaging. No matter how much we would like to, control of the EU Project is not in the hands of the people. With at least eight other EU Project member countries with significant numbers of citizens wanting to leave the Project, it is clear (to me at least) that we as the people of Europe have no control over the Project directly but we can influence the situation by leaving it.

The EU Project, in my opinion, is heading for the rocks and although there will be much worthwhile to salvage from the wreckage, the ship itself is doomed never to sail again.

Perhaps this is the opportunity for the young to get out there and build a new ship that is more appropriate for today's modern world, whilst retaining the best of the old.

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By Staffordshire Accountant
06th Jun 2016 14:24

Francois you talk about freedom of movement as if that is the only freedom at stake, it is not.

What about freedom to make our own laws, freedom to be governed only by those WE elect, freedom to decide our own tax rates (the EU is already dictating VAT rates), freedom to have our own armed forces instead of the proposed EU army, freedom to implement our own green policies, freedom to run our businesses as we see fit, and, freedom to stop undesirables, criminals, and terrorists from entering our country.

Yes there are about one million Brits living and working in Europe, but there are about 4 million EU citizens living and working in Britain, so I don't think the EU is going to start sending Brits home.

How exactly do you think our freedoms are going to be protected if we vote remain?

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Replying to Staffordshire Accountant:
By Ruddles
06th Jun 2016 15:47

Undesirables will always find a way to enter the country, just as they do this website.

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Replying to Ruddles:
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By Staffordshire Accountant
06th Jun 2016 18:12

You consider those who support Brexit as undesirable? How offensive.

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Replying to Staffordshire Accountant:
By Ruddles
06th Jun 2016 18:39

Nothing to do with Brexit or Remain- just an observation that banned members seem to be able to defy their bans from this site at will. They are thus undesirable - regardless of their views.

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Replying to Ruddles:
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By Staffordshire Accountant
06th Jun 2016 19:18

If that is an accusation then have the courage to say so instead of cowardly innuendos. I consider your behavior highly offensive and not what one would expect on a professional site. Perhaps you are not a professional?

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Replying to Ruddles:
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By Staffordshire Accountant
06th Jun 2016 19:18

If that is an accusation then have the courage to say so instead of cowardly innuendos. I consider your behavior highly offensive and not what one would expect on a professional site. Perhaps you are not a professional?

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By CMED
06th Jun 2016 15:04

You may all continue this discussion until you are blue in the face. It no longer matters to me as I can no longer vote.

I am going on holiday on Friday 10th June, knowing I would be away on voting day, I applied for a postal vote. My postal vote application was processed and I awaited my Ballot Paper.

I phoned today to find out when postal Ballot Papers will be issued and was advised that it will be on Monday 13th June. Even though I know that many of you here have already voted by post, I was told that 13th June was the the date for the postal Ballot Papers to be issued to everywhere in the Country.

Please use your vote wisely and if you are unsure, vote remain for me!

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Replying to CMED:
Tornado
By Tornado
06th Jun 2016 15:25

Can you not appoint a proxy vote (by 15th June). Even with a postal vote, you can still vote in person or appoint a person to vote for you.

All is not lost, whichever way you want to vote.

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Replying to Tornado:
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By CMED
06th Jun 2016 16:47

I may be wrong but I thought to vote in person you had to vote at your designated polling station. I don't really fancy an 900 mile round trip to vote!

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Replying to CMED:
Tornado
By Tornado
07th Jun 2016 10:52

CMED wrote:

I may be wrong but I thought to vote in person you had to vote at your designated polling station. I don't really fancy an 900 mile round trip to vote!

I was trying to say that even if you have registered for a postal vote, you still have the option to vote personally instead if you wish. This also means (I believe) that you could appoint a proxy to vote for you. Thus, appoint a proxy who lives near your polling station, do not send in a postal vote (which it seems you will not be able to do anyway) and instruct that proxy how you want to vote. They will then go to the Polling Station with their proxy voting papers and put a cross in the box you told them to.

Meanwhile, you are sitting on the beach with your cocktails knowing that your vote is being cast for you.

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Replying to CMED:
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By lionofludesch
06th Jun 2016 16:33

Nonsense.

Mine's on my desk. Has been for nearly a month. I'm waiting to see who's telling least lies, Dave or Boris. It's a tough call.

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Replying to lionofludesch:
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By NDH
07th Jun 2016 09:42

It's a tricky one. Do you judge it on volume of lies or on how big those lies are.

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Replying to NDH:
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By lionofludesch
07th Jun 2016 11:07

Quantity v Quality ? The old argument......

Probably HMG need to reflect on why huge swathes of the populace feel that the Government is doing such a poor job that they want to leave the UK., never mind the EU.

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By Comptable
06th Jun 2016 17:24

Francois makes a very good point. I don't know how old he is but almost all the young people I know think of themselves as European British (OK I don't live in Scotland or Wales or NI). Loads of them act and think like Europeans. And I think that is a very good thing because it widens their horizons and opens up possibilities and opportunities for them that earlier generations (including me) never had. And actually what does being a member of the EU stop individuals doing that they would otherwise be able to do?

For centuries this was an outward looking country and as such it was hugely successful. More so than any other country had ever been. But it didn't get there by pulling up the drawer bridge. It got there by being involved in the world as it was at the time; taking risks and moving forward. That is what we need.

And on the question of what deal we might get with the EU if we leave, I am not a member of a cricket club but I know for sure that if I was and I resigned they would never have me back on better terms that the other members - even if I was really good at cricket - which I am not.

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Replying to Comptable:
By ShirleyM
06th Jun 2016 17:51

"For centuries this was an outward looking country and as such it was hugely successful. More so than any other country had ever been. But it didn't get there by pulling up the drawer bridge."

But that is the situation we are in now. The EU prevents us building a bridge to the rest of the world. We have to use their very small bridge which goes to very few places, and we have to pay a massive toll for the privilege.

The EU is a custom union, and is protectionist. The EU has pulled up the drawbridge. We want a bridge that reaches out to the whole world.

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Replying to ShirleyM:
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By Knight Rider
06th Jun 2016 18:12

The leave campaign could make more of the lower shop prices that will result from leaving this customs union. The EU elite may buy their clothes hand made in Italy but most of mine come from the Far East. Food could be sourced more cheaply from Africa or outside the EU which would in turn help to develop other economies unfairly disadvantaged by EU protectionism.,

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