Can a share fisherman trade as a limited company

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Skipper of a boat, but he doesnt own it. Can he pany rather than being self employed. Reasons are essentially for tax reasons. Had a look on companies house and it looks as though some fishermen are doing this although it is not common.

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By Practise_Accountant88
15th Nov 2016 17:07

Can he operate through a limited company rather than being self employed***

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RLI
By lionofludesch
15th Nov 2016 18:06

Don't see why not so long as marine laws (in which, surprisingly, I'm not an expert) permit it.

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By 356B
16th Nov 2016 10:51
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By Practise_Accountant88
16th Nov 2016 18:18

I dont see anything in that link that says they have to be ltd only describes the treatment if they were self employed.
I appreciate that this goes against the norm but I cant see anything that says it cant be done.

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RLI
By lionofludesch
16th Nov 2016 18:28

Pretty much the first line says "... if you are not employed ..."

So, if you are employed, the link has no relevance.

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By 356B
17th Nov 2016 10:45

You’re a share fisherman if you work in the fishing industry and you:

aren’t employed under a contract of service

He would be employed under a contract of service, as an employee of the LTD.

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Replying to 356B:
RLI
By lionofludesch
17th Nov 2016 10:58

356B wrote:

You’re a share fisherman if you work in the fishing industry and you:

aren’t employed under a contract of service

He would be employed under a contract of service, as an employee of the LTD.

Yeah. So he's not a share fisherman. He's employed by a company which receives a share of the profits of the catch.

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Replying to 356B:
Portia profile image
By Portia Nina Levin
17th Nov 2016 11:28

356B wrote:

He would be employed under a contract of service, as an employee of the LTD.


Balderdash!
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Replying to Portia Nina Levin:
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By lionofludesch
17th Nov 2016 11:37

Portia Nina Levin wrote:

356B wrote:

He would be employed under a contract of service, as an employee of the LTD.

Balderdash!

If he was a director, maybe he'd have a contract, maybe he wouldn't.

But I don't think that's relevant anyway.

What I'd like clarifying is - what is the point of the OP?

I had assumed that it was simply a matter of whether the company could contract with the trawler owners to receive a share of the catch. Maybe not.........

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Replying to lionofludesch:
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By Portia Nina Levin
17th Nov 2016 11:50

That would be my understanding too.

Notwithstanding that there is unlikely to be a contract of service, I would accept that the individual would not be a share fisherman for the NIC purposes.

As you suggest though, I do not think that is the OP's point.

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By 356B
17th Nov 2016 12:35

The question was "Can he operate through a limited company rather than being self employed"

As a share fisherman he can't, as a LTD doesn't qualify as a share fisherman.

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Replying to 356B:
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By Portia Nina Levin
17th Nov 2016 12:49

I think you will find the point of the OP over there
<<------------------------------------------------------

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Replying to 356B:
RLI
By lionofludesch
17th Nov 2016 13:12

356B wrote:

The question was "Can he operate through a limited company rather than being self employed"

As a share fisherman he can't, as a LTD doesn't qualify as a share fisherman.

So what was the point of all this nonsense about contracts?

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Portia profile image
By Portia Nina Levin
18th Nov 2016 10:54

Pfftttt!!!!

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By The Grammar Police
17th Nov 2016 15:23

It doesn't matter how you phrase it, a share fisherman is a self employed person. A LTD cannot be a share fisherman according to the HMRC definition. A LTD cannot claim the NIC/Tax benefits of a share fisherman and the employee would be subject to Minimum Wage etc.
"A person employed as a master or a member of the crew of a fishing vessel who is paid, in respect of that employment, only by a share in the profits or gross earnings of the vessel does not qualify for the national minimum wage in respect of that employment.

This condition only applies to share fishermen whose whole income in respect of that employment is made up of a share of the profits from the catch. A fisherman who receives any payments in another form, such as a fixed wage, or has a standard contract of employment or other type of worker’s contract, will be entitled to the national minimum wage in the same way as other mariners and seafarers (NMWM06180)."

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Replying to The Grammar Police:
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By Portia Nina Levin
18th Nov 2016 10:54

And the point of the OP is still over there!
<<-------------------------------------------------

Pfftttt!!!!

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Replying to Portia Nina Levin:
RLI
By lionofludesch
17th Nov 2016 15:39

It would, of course, help if querists would state clearly what they want to know.

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Portia profile image
By Portia Nina Levin
18th Nov 2016 10:55

Pfftttt!!!!

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Replying to Portia Nina Levin:
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By Duhamel
17th Nov 2016 15:54

Is Kermit under your desk again?

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By pawncob
17th Nov 2016 15:46

BUT, if he trades through a LTD, he ceases to be a share fisherman, so the answer must be "No he can't"

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RLI
By lionofludesch
17th Nov 2016 15:53

This thread is fantastic entertainment.

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Portia profile image
By Portia Nina Levin
18th Nov 2016 10:55

Pfftttt!!!!

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Replying to Portia Nina Levin:
Worm
By TheLambtonWorm
17th Nov 2016 17:09

But do you have a share fisherman in that case, or do you just have a bloke going off fishing in a boat with some other blokes, whilst trading through a Limited Company?

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By justsotax
17th Nov 2016 16:40

I was having a really bad day until I read this....its like the clip from planes trains and automobiles...dropping the F bomb multiple times 30 seconds...I am officially cheered up. Good has come from your frustration PNL.

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By mrme89
17th Nov 2016 16:50

Would he still be called a skipper? Or would they be a director? Maybe they are still a share fisherman.
I'm confused by all this [***].

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Replying to mrme89:
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By Duhamel
17th Nov 2016 16:58

Presumably if he wears a red jumper plus burgundy trousers (the horror), he'd be described as a crimson skipper.

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By 356B
17th Nov 2016 17:14

As Lionofludesch said:
Yeah. So he's not a share fisherman. He's employed by a company which receives a share of the profits of the catch.

He's not a share fisherman if he's employed by the company.

Suggest PNL goes back and reads the OP again.

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Replying to 356B:
Portia profile image
By Portia Nina Levin
18th Nov 2016 10:56

Pfftttt!!!!

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Replying to Portia Nina Levin:
Worm
By TheLambtonWorm
17th Nov 2016 17:55

Part of the OP says "Can a share fisherman trade as a limited company".

The two are mutually exclusive, so no!

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Replying to TheLambtonWorm:
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By lionofludesch
17th Nov 2016 18:03

So you're saying that a share fisherman can't have a limited company to do a bit of painting and decorating while he's on shore leave ?

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Replying to lionofludesch:
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By TheLambtonWorm
17th Nov 2016 18:17

Not if he's been disqualified as a director he can't.

We're a little sketchy on details though.

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Replying to 356B:
RLI
By lionofludesch
17th Nov 2016 17:40

356B wrote:
<

Suggest PNL goes back and reads the OP again.

The opening post ? Or the thread title ?

They ask different questions.

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Replying to lionofludesch:
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By Portia Nina Levin
18th Nov 2016 10:56

Pfftttt!!!!

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RLI
By lionofludesch
17th Nov 2016 18:12

Anyway - tea's ready .............

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Replying to lionofludesch:
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By Portia Nina Levin
18th Nov 2016 10:57

Pfftttt!!!!

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Replying to Portia Nina Levin:
Worm
By TheLambtonWorm
17th Nov 2016 18:22

Best thread on AW in a while though!

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By 356B
17th Nov 2016 20:14

The question was
"Can he operate through a limited company rather than being self employed***"
Note that : "rather than being self employed" it's mutually exclusive.
And the answer is still no. And the definition was provided by HMRC (who make the rules)

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By mrme89
17th Nov 2016 20:36

HMRC don't make up the rules. They just try and enforce them, and rather badly at that.

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By DMGbus
17th Nov 2016 21:08

I've only ever come across share fishermen in practice once and here is how that example (some 30 years ago) worked:
1. The vessel (boat) was owned by a Ltd Co (audit client then)
2. The proceeds from each landed catch were shared something like 50% to the boat and the rest amongst the crew (equally apart from the skipper who had a higher share than other crew members)
3. Audited accounts were prepared for the Ltd Co that owned the vessel
4. I don't recall any partnership accounts being prepared, my recollection is that crew members' fishermens share was deducted as an expense in the company accounts

Based on the above recollection the proceeds from landed fishing catch were shared, one of the participants was a Ltd Co which had the lion's share in consideration of the fact that the Ltd Co bore all of the depreciation and running costs of the vessel.

I suppose one of the share fisherman could potentially have owned some (or all) of the Ltd Co shares, but I know that in the example quoted that was not the case.

I am not upto date on current practice with fishing vessels and share fishermen, I just state the way that it was with an example that I dealt with in the mid 1980s. I wonder if any Aweb contributors have more upto date experience of dealng with such clients?

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By Practise_Accountant88
18th Nov 2016 11:08

Wow. So this escalated. Many thanks to Portia who has grasped the intentions of the question perfectly rather than going through my use of English with a fine tooth comb and taken the OP out of context.

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Replying to Practise_Accountant88:
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By TheLambtonWorm
18th Nov 2016 11:16

And you had to go and spoil it all!

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By Practise_Accountant88
18th Nov 2016 11:44

I got what I wanted. Was it not good for you...

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Replying to Practise_Accountant88:
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By TheLambtonWorm
18th Nov 2016 11:54

It wasn't good for Portias blood pressure.

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By pawncob
18th Nov 2016 11:58

Have they pulled stumps then?

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