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CGT 30 day reporting for digitally excluded?

Client doesn't have email let alone a Personal Tax Account - any workaround?

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I've got a client who is selling a property with an associated gain so will need to do a return shortly. They do not use internet/email so won't be able to set up a Personal Tax Account. I naively thought at first that the reporting was going to be the same as the Non-resident ones that used to exist! 

Surely there must be an alternative to setting up a Personal Tax Account? All helpful suggestions appreciated!

Replies (28)

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By richard thomas
24th Aug 2020 17:34

In my reply on 18 August to the question "Reporting CGT in 30 days for a minor' asked on that day by nikclaydon I said:

"There is certainly no readily available paper return. But once you manage to find HMRC’s webpage dealing with the 30-day CGT return of gains on dwellings you will see that the system is only capable of dealing with one return a year and that if you have more you must contact HMRC. Perhaps this is what you were thinking about.

Needless to say there is nothing in the law which makes it mandatory to file the return online, nor on one view is it even permitted. But to get the prescribed details for a return you have to already be registered for online services and to pretend you are making an online return, so for the digitally excluded (and those excluded by age) with a gain to report and pay they almost certainly have a reasonable excuse for a failure to file (though not perhaps for a failure to pay)."

Thus you should be able to find out what the questions are and info required by HMRC by using your own PTA. If not I suggest you contact HMRC through the link on the webpage I referred to and ask them to send the client a paper return and see what response you get.

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By susieq
25th Aug 2020 08:55

I had this in June this year. Elderly married couple and both had to report the gain. They came over to me (socially distant) and we tried to set up an account for them using my internet, because then they can authorise you to deal with the submission. Couldn't verify them because they had no passport, credit card or anything else that worked. I rang the agent helpline and was in queue for 30 mins before giving up and sent them home to make the call themselves. Took 45 mins apparently and they explained the problem and a paper return was issued. It came just over a week ago! I have copied the blank return for future use. So, although I'm not very technical, if you want to private message me I could try and send a copy of the blank return, if it helps.

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Replying to susieq:
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By James_Lambert
25th Aug 2020 09:59

Thanks Susieq. If the copy I have been promised doesn't appear I shall let you know :-)

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Replying to James_Lambert:
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By Ashford
27th Aug 2020 20:13

replying to Susieq. I would also very much appreciate a form being emailed to:-

[email protected]

Thank you very much!

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Replying to susieq:
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By Richard Suggett
26th Aug 2020 11:45

Hi Susieq
Could you send an email copy to me at
[email protected]
R Suggett

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Replying to susieq:
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By Ashford
27th Aug 2020 20:16

Please be kind enough to email me a copy of the blank return:-
[email protected]
Thank you very much

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Replying to susieq:
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By TT8AR
18th Mar 2021 11:04

Hi Susie
Can you send me a blank form to me too at [email protected]
Many thanks
Tricia

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RLI
By lionofludesch
25th Aug 2020 09:05

Just write in marking your letter "very urgent".

I wonder if you can get a stock of blank paper forms?

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Scooby
By gainsborough
25th Aug 2020 09:14

Justin previously posted on how to obtain a paper form...it might still be possible.

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By James_Lambert
25th Aug 2020 09:57

Thanks all for the responses. Called HMRC at 8am today and got put through to a technical advisor (after just 2 rings too!!!)

Explained the situation and they are sending out a blank form as digitally excluded client. They wanted UTR/NI number initially but when I explained it was a new client and 64-8 not in yet they agreed to send directly to me by post.

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Replying to James_Lambert:
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By Rgab1947
26th Aug 2020 10:04

Ahhh... You let the cat out of the bag. Everyone will now phone at 08:00

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By Mister E
26th Aug 2020 10:08

This was posted on the HMRC agent forum the other day:

Here are the bullet points to reflect the process where a digitally excluded customer wants to appoint an agent to act on their behalf:
• Agent is required to register with Agent Services unless they have an existing account
• Agent asks client to contact HMRC Taxes helpline on 0300 200 3300 to register for a CGT account
• HMRC Taxes helpline advisor will confirm that client is digitally excluded and refer customer to HMRC Extra Support Service
• HMRC Extra Support Service advisor will help the client register for a CGT account. This process will be done by phone or face to face, as appropriate
• The registration process will result in the client receiving a CGT account reference number. Reference number will be created in real-time
• Client gives the CGT account reference number to their agent to begin the agent-client authorisation process
• Agent logs into Agent Services and selects ‘Ask your client to authorise you’
• Agent enters the CGT account reference number of their client, creating an invitation link
• Client contacts HMRC Taxes helpline to request support to authorise their agent
• HMRC Extra Support Service advisor uses client’s CGT account reference number to identify agent-client authorisation request
• HMRC Extra Support Service advisor confirms client is happy for agent to act on their behalf
• HMRC Extra Support Service advisor creates agent-client relationship
• Agent is able engage digitally with HMRC on behalf of client for CGT property disposals

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Replying to Mister E:
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By Ammie
26th Aug 2020 10:58

Wow! The beauty of digitalisation, so quick and efficient!

Lord help us all!

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Replying to Mister E:
By cfield
26th Aug 2020 10:58

Or... you could just set up a PTA for them and do the return on the spot. Just ask them to bring in their passports. Note the User ID, create a password, give both to them (just in case they ever want to login themselves or get someone else to) and off you go.

HMRC don't like it. So what. It's not against the law. As a legal agent, you can do anything the principal asks you to. No need for HMRC to recognise you as agent. The law of agency already does that.

If HMRC are going to make life difficult for people, they shouldn't complain if people make life difficult for them. Always put your client first and do what is easiest for them. Don't jump through HMRC hoops unless you absolutely have to.

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Replying to cfield:
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By Mister E
27th Aug 2020 11:29

You know the more I do these the more I agree just set them up for the client.

I have done so with the odd trust register one where the client is really struggling. We do it over the phone and it works fine.

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Replying to Mister E:
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By Wanderer
26th Aug 2020 14:07

What's the chances of HMRC actually completing this process in the 30 day window? There appears to be eight or so points which require HMRC involvement in the process. I'd say nil chance!

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Replying to Wanderer:
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By Mister E
27th Aug 2020 11:26

I agree, but I think you'd have a very good excuse to appeal the penalties!

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By Homeworker
26th Aug 2020 10:16

I have been trying since the second week of August to get hold of one of the paper forms for a client who sold his property on 4th August. I have spoken to HMRC 3 times and none of the agents had a clue what I was talking about. The first call did result in a form being sent out but all the client received was a set of CG pages for a tax return. Half the time HMRC are not answering the phones and yesterday I got through after 30 minutes but was cut off while waiting for the officer to come back to me, as he had put me on hold to investigate! How on earth are we supposed to cope with this legislation!

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Replying to Homeworker:
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By Homeworker
26th Aug 2020 12:36

Since I wrote this I have been on the phone again and am pleased to say that for once HMRC got something right...although I was cut off yesterday apparently the guy I spoke to did work out what I needed and has arranged for the correct form to be sent out. Now I am just waiting and hoping it gets here in time.

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By geoffmw1
26th Aug 2020 11:04

the more I read the happier I am that I am a retired accountant

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Replying to geoffmw1:
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By Homeworker
26th Aug 2020 12:37

geoffmw1 wrote:

the more I read the happier I am that I am a retired accountant


..and with MTD for landlords looming I will be getting out before April 2022! I'm too old for all this hassle.
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RLI
By lionofludesch
26th Aug 2020 11:14

HMRC's problem is that they want everyone else to do the dull work.

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Morph
By kevinringer
26th Aug 2020 13:53

This question was asked on HMRC's agent forum at https://community.hmrc.gov.uk/forums/agentforums/cg/534bc672-8167-ea11-9.... You have to be a member to view it. The answer:

'You have to phone the helpline and ask for a paper form pre-populated with the taxpayers details to be sent for completion. They can be called 0300 200 3300.'

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Replying to kevinringer:
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By seitler
14th Nov 2020 21:13

Can you not photocopy the form and tippex/cover the clients details and copy again for future use ?

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Replying to seitler:
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By Mister E
16th Nov 2020 08:28

Seitler - HMRC have indicated that they will reject any forms 'reused', they have to be "issued". I don't quite understand this personally, you'd think they would want to assist and make it easier. I suppose they don't want loads of paper forms coming in and so making it more difficult to send in a paper form.
Feel free to give it a go though and let us know if it is accepted.
We have a blank one but so far no one has used it in the firm.

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Replying to Mister E:
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By seitler
16th Nov 2020 10:14

Thanks Mister E.
Would you mind scanning the blank form to me. happy to give it a try.
[email protected]

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Replying to seitler:
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By Mister E
18th Nov 2020 09:01

I just emailed over.
Any issues let me know.
Do keep us up to date on the progress.
Thanks,

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