Share this content

CGT on sale of property

Why do HMRC make it so difficult for individuals to comply with the pay and file requirements

Didn't find your answer?

I have four clients who jointly owned a proeprty and have sold it. They have tried t oset up the necessary tax account but failed to get past the identification stage (who can remember when they took out their last credit card). I know that we can only file for them as agent if they have set the account up.  How do I get a form (PPDCGT094646) to complete and get them to sign and file by post. I have seen one but cannot find where to download it from. I have tried to speak to HMRC but had the phone put down on me.

Replies (26)

Please login or register to join the discussion.

Scooby
By gainsborough
06th Oct 2021 15:54

You can't download it unfortunately but if you call the Agent Line and ask for a CGTPPD form (the number bit is unique to the client) they will send one to you - takes just over a week to arrive.

Thanks (1)
By ireallyshouldknowthisbut
06th Oct 2021 16:12

I think most practices are now just resorting to paper filing by default. Get one and you can just copy it and re-use.

The new system doesn't work, so why bother.

The other work around I was told BY HMRC (!) was to file under your own personal account as a "capacitor". The functionality is limited as you cant edit or save it, but you can file the thing and get it off your desk. You also get the payment details right away.

I have stopped doing these on an "adhoc" basis and only do them for existing clients now as its such a faff.

It is of course the exact same 'digital handshake' that will be required for quarterly reporting for MTDfIT. Doesnt bode well does it?

Thanks (5)
By CazzyT
06th Oct 2021 16:18

And once you have one, remove the name / reference number and take a really good copy / save a pdf version that you can use in future - it is cheating but it works!

Thanks (3)
Replying to CazzyT:
Scooby
By gainsborough
06th Oct 2021 16:33

Exactly Cazzy - I am feeling smug as using a pdf version previously saved as I type!

Thanks (3)
avatar
By justsotax
06th Oct 2021 16:52

The paper forms I have received haven't even got a unique reference, they are completely blank.

Worst still they have advised they take up to 16 weeks for HMRC to process the form and issue a payment request for the CGT (the deadline for payment deferred to 30 days after the Revenue have issued this demand).

Hardly encourages you to deal with online, indeed I think it is a very persuasive argument to deal with all CGT disclosures by paper in order to provide client with the longest possible lead time to make the actually payment without being punished with interest charges. The people who come up with this system really are idiots!

Thanks (2)
Replying to justsotax:
avatar
By Geoff56
06th Oct 2021 17:10

Check the bottom left corner of the pages. All four paper returns that I have obtained recently, have the client's UTR there, in very small print. Also page 1, which backs onto page 2, is a letter containing all the client's details very clearly.

Thanks (1)
Replying to Geoff56:
avatar
By justsotax
06th Oct 2021 17:22

I have checked, and you are indeed correct, I hadn't noticed that (although on one of my overseas client's there was no detail in the bottom right hand corner).

That said, given the Revenues objections to dealing with paper declarations, I presumed that the forms would come with the unique CGT reference (hence the reason why the form wasn't readily available online and why you had to ring up). Neither of the paper Returns I have received contain this reference, in fact whilst the UTR is on the bottom corner of one they haven't pre-populated any respective boxes that need to be completed.....

Thanks (1)
Replying to justsotax:
avatar
By Geoff56
06th Oct 2021 18:21

I think the CGT reference is only issued when the paper return is processed; hence having to wait to make the payment, until this is to hand.

Thanks (0)
avatar
By ianvogan
06th Oct 2021 17:04

Many thanks for your helpful replies, it is a great pity that HMRC cannot be as helpful.

Thanks (2)
RedFive
By RedFive
06th Oct 2021 17:30

I would push back with the client and tell them to strap their big person boots on and create the account.

I’ve done 3 separate CGT returns in the last month and all done, submitted and paid within the first week from completion.

Once they set the property tax account up and you have that number then email them a link to authorise you and that’s it. All in the agents hands from that point onwards.

I must be missing the difficult part of the process? Yes the gateway can be a pain to set up but that’s the clients problem.

2 of the clients were not technical at all and they managed no problem with setting the account up.

It’s a nice little extra earner on top of the normal annual tax return fee.

I wouldn’t be faffing about with paper returns that’s for sure.

Thanks (0)
Replying to RedFive:
By ireallyshouldknowthisbut
06th Oct 2021 18:41

The problem is many people cant get the accounts open.

Some can, some cant.

I know on my own one I had to guess several things and I have a pretty good knowledge of my own finances. But I do have4 mortgages (one BTL, 3 on my PPR) and when it asked "what values is your mortgage?" It offered 3 or 4 bands and I had one in I think 3 of them!

When you get to a pensioner or something without a passport its really hard to pass, and handholding the client is really tedious. I find it much easier to fill in the paper form myself, low stress, within my control and beats having tearful/angry/annoyed clients on the phone.

Thanks (3)
Replying to RedFive:
avatar
By justsotax
07th Oct 2021 15:39

Not so easy with a 80 year old technology challenged client but lets be clear the declaration is the easy part.....why oh why they require us to be authorised again is the issue.....because most clients use us so they don't have a personal tax account to begin with.

Some client's have dealt with this easily....some not so much.....but no one should have to do it because we are already authorised.

The paper form is no more difficult than the online version....except you don't have to faff with the authorisation - you simply send a 64-8 with the declaration to get signed by the client.......plus the client then gets an extra 3-4 months to pay the tax.

Thanks (2)
Replying to RedFive:
avatar
By justsotax
07th Oct 2021 15:41

I should add Redfive, this is about pushing back against the Revenue for making a system that could have been so easy more complicated than it needed to be.....

Thanks (2)
Replying to justsotax:
RedFive
By RedFive
07th Oct 2021 16:11

Fair enough and I’m no apologist for them.

In a week of multiple issues such as. CT losses not carried back, debt collectors for debts that don’t exist, vat payments missing, form A1 not being granted due to hmrc incompetence, PAYE payments not allocated (I could go on) the CGT return is at the bottom of my very long list of things hmrc do badly.

Maybe I’ve been lucky with the clients I’ve had.

Thanks (1)
Replying to RedFive:
avatar
By justsotax
07th Oct 2021 17:19

As things go I am sure it is a fairly simple issue as compared to some of the problems, but I guess that's my issue.....if they can't come up with a straight forward process for something that already gets declared on a tax return (but just needs to be declared earlier) then no wonder they screw up everything else.....

It is completely counter intuitive to deal with paper when it can be done electronically....yet they have created a system that almost encourages that....it is truly crazy.....

Thanks (0)
avatar
By fawltybasil2575
07th Oct 2021 18:36

@ ianvogan (OP).

I would have to agree with justsotax (their 16.52 post). Frankly, submitting the forms ONLINE raises the distinct possibility of receiving a letter/email from a client along the lines of:-

“Dear Mr. Acco,

As you know, I reluctantly paid £53,750 four weeks ago for CGT on the sale of 33 Wimsington Gardens, upon your dealing with the online CGT form, and instructing me to make such payment. As you also know, I had advised you that (since the property sale proceeds were required to pay the outstanding mortgage and other pressing creditors) I was desperately short of funds as a result of making that payment.

I was speaking, at the Golf Club yesterday, to a friend whose circumstances are almost identical to my own: his accountant has attended to his CGT in an entirely different way from the manner adopted by you, inasmuch as he has submitted the CGT forms on paper, in the knowledge that (from his experience) the CGT will only need to be paid in around 6 months’ time. If I had myself been advised of that alternative approach, I would have been able to use the funds to assist in the immediate purchase of another property which is available at a “knockdown price” due to the vendor’s estate (following the death of the vendor) wishing an immediate sale.

Your actions, therefore, Mr. Acco, are, according to another Golf Club friend (a leading barrister with Suckem, Dry LLP, who have now accepted my instructions to act) actionable, and I must ask you to confirm, by return, that you will pay to me the sum of £55,000, being the estimated amount which I have potentially lost by your clearly negligent conduct.

Please also advise me of the name and address of your Professional Indemnity insurers, and advise me why you adopted the online submission approach in my case.

Yours sincerely.

Boris”.

An intentionally extreme example, of course, but I assure you that the message therein is entirely valid.

Basil.

Thanks (0)
Replying to fawltybasil2575:
avatar
By Wanderer
07th Oct 2021 18:54

Easily rebutted though Basil:-
"Dear Boris

As you manged to sign up for the online service then you wouldn't qualify as 'digitally excluded' like your golf club friend.

I am now resigning as your accountant.

Yours sincerely

Acco"

Thanks (1)
Replying to fawltybasil2575:
My photo
By Matrix
07th Oct 2021 18:56

Wow. Please provide the legislation regarding paper forms if you think this is such a risk.

Thanks (0)
RedFive
By RedFive
07th Oct 2021 19:14

There isn't. Wanderer is right. Paper is a workaround that HMRC will begrudgingly let you use as they know there systems are rubbish. It's not the 'right' way to do it.

I respect FawltyBasil hugely on this forum and he has helped me in the past but I fear he has had a sherry or two and is just playing with us here.

9/10 for effort though.

Thanks (0)
avatar
By fawltybasil2575
07th Oct 2021 20:07

@ Wanderer (18.54 post).

I respectfully disagree. “Signing up” for the online service most certainly does not compel one to use it !

@ Matrix (18.56 post).

This is the legislation which you seek:-

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2019/1/schedule/2-

There is nothing therein which restricts claims to online ones. The entitlement to use paper forms derives from there being no legislation to prevent such use. As I have stated previously in another thread, one is not even required to use HMRC forms, but can use standard letters (assuming that they comply of course with the requirements of the legislation as to the content thereof – please see the legislation).

@ RedFive (your 19.14 post).

Thank you for your kind words.

(i) Re your “right way” opening four sentences. See my response to Matrix as above: there is no “right way”, or indeed “wrong way”, in the legislation.

(ii) Strictly teetotal, I must respectfully disappoint you re your “sherry” remark.

(iii) Most very definitely not “playing with” anyone – merely trying to provide (albeit with intentionally an extreme example) a serious piece of advice.

(iv) “9/10” - I'm disappointed with your score :)

Basil.

Thanks (1)
avatar
By fawltybasil2575
07th Oct 2021 20:52

Re my 20.07 post, and with my apology, the link appears to be broken - hopefully this will work:-

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2019/1/schedule/2

Basil.

Thanks (0)
avatar
By agknight
11th Oct 2021 10:18

I have been picking up phone calls from people living locally, usually pensioners, who are selling a property and need help to file CGT gain.

I can only concur that its an absolute nightmare to get people over the line, starting with the ID stage - its like a random number generator.

If I were to charge for the time wasted in the setting up process I would feel it so unfair on the innocent individuals I'm trying to help. But it is a complete distraction from dealing with my ongoing income generating business clients.

Its just another example of a complete head banging exercise these days that we have to go through, before our expertise is actually used in calculating a tax or advising a strategy. But no one is listening.

Moan over.

Thanks (1)
avatar
By Homeworker
11th Oct 2021 10:33

I've dealt with these in all three ways; on paper, through my own PTA and with client having set up online account. I've stopped using my own PTA as I am not comfortable doing so for clients but am still having to phone for paper forms (no problems so far, apart from the long delay in processing). We have many pensioner clients with let property who will be unable to set up PTAs and I cannot see the need for paper returns going away any time soon.

Thanks (1)
Replying to Homeworker:
avatar
By Homeworker
11th Oct 2021 12:41

Update: rang HMRC (agent line) for paper forms on the 4th and they were sent out the next day. They have reached me via the client today. I think that is quite acceptable thanks HMRC.

Thanks (0)
avatar
By petestar1969
11th Oct 2021 11:31

Why? So they can charge penalties, that's why.

Thanks (1)
avatar
By North East Accountant
11th Oct 2021 13:19

"Why do HMRC make it so difficult for individuals to comply with the pay and file requirements"

Cos they haven't got a clue.

Thanks (2)
Share this content