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Changing payroll agents using different software

Changing payroll agents using different software

We have been asked to take over the payroll processing for a company with 80 employees for July. The previous payroll agents were using IRIS System whereas we are using Sage 50 Payroll Software. Am I correct in assuming that in addition to usual employees' details, i.e. Name, NINO, Address, we also need the long 16 character RTI Works/Employee number to be copied over into our Sage System (along with other details and Year-to-Date values) ? When we asked the previous payroller, this was the first time they had heard about RTI Employee reference to be used this way. The worrying thing is the fact they had acquired this client from an earlier agents using Sage. They seem to have successfully e-filed June FPS without thinking twice about obtaining the RTI no's from the previous agents. Can you please help as we are getting conflicting views and opinions from Software providers as well as from HMR&C.

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By SXGuy
14th Jul 2018 22:11

I personally. Have no idea what your on about either.

To submit with rti there is no 16 digit employee number. What there is however is the accounts office and reference number. Which of course you would have already.

If you are referring to a submission reference, these are generated once an fps has been submitted, you don't need it before it can be done.

If you take over payroll, you just need all the usual details and add the total earnings etc etc to continue the payroll run.

I've taken over a few payrolls mid way through and have never heard of this 16 digit employee reference you refer to. Perhaps you could link me to some official documentation which explains what you mean?

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to SXGuy
14th Jul 2018 22:41

Thank you SX Guy. The problem arises when your new client was using a payroll software different to yours. IRIS Knowledge base article 11686 in the section "Starter Declaration" mentions that the Employee code needs to be entered in order to tell the new system that this is not a new employee. Please see the link below.
https://www.iris.co.uk/support/knowledgebase/kb/11686

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By Matrix
to rezasamii
14th Jul 2018 23:23

This means the employee reference number if there is one, so 1,2,3 etc.

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to SXGuy
15th Jul 2018 09:20

SXGuy wrote:

I personally. Have no idea what your on about either.

To submit with rti there is no 16 digit employee number. What there is however is the accounts office and reference number. Which of course you would have already.

If you are referring to a submission reference, these are generated once an fps has been submitted, you don't need it before it can be done.

If you take over payroll, you just need all the usual details and add the total earnings etc etc to continue the payroll run.

I've taken over a few payrolls mid way through and have never heard of this 16 digit employee reference you refer to. Perhaps you could link me to some official documentation which explains what you mean?

If you haven't had problems with this then you may just have been lucky. Employments under RTI have a unique reference for each employee. Most software, but not all, uses the software employee number as that reference. So when you switch between products it is *usually* important to make sure that employee reference numbers in the new system are the same as the employee reference numbers in the old system.

Where Sage 50 is concerned the approach of using the same employee number is not sufficient. This is because Sage generates a completely separate 16 character RTI reference for each employee record. If you switch to new software mid-year and don't use the RTI reference from the previous Sage runs, chances are that the HMRC will think that the employee now has 2 employments with the same employer (a ridiculous stance for HMRC's RTI processing to take, but that is what it does)

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to TomMcClelland
15th Jul 2018 10:41

Thank you Tom. Very informative. Does this mean that the "Year - to - Date" values that the previous agents have provided us now to do the July payroll are wrong ? How can I correct the submitted June FPS ? They seem to have just used the Employee numbers: 1,2,5,14,26, etc... with gaps representing the past leavers and did not bother with the 16 characters.

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By Matrix
to rezasamii
15th Jul 2018 11:30

You will know if this has caused an issue depending on whether the employees have been issued with bizarre tax codes. If they have then the employer would know by now. If the tax codes look normal then just use the existing employee ref numbers you refer to above.

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to Matrix
15th Jul 2018 11:41

Thank you Matrix. Soon to find out! I haven't submitted my FBI 2 and 64-8 forms yet as I suspect the previous agents will have a few more conversations with HMR&C Helpline. I may need your expertise later. Kind regards.

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to Matrix
15th Jul 2018 11:51

Matrix wrote:

You will know if this has caused an issue depending on whether the employees have been issued with bizarre tax codes. If they have then the employer would know by now. If the tax codes look normal then just use the existing employee ref numbers you refer to above.

He is taking over in July, so this wouldn't apply yet.

EDIT: Though I see there might be an issue because of the previous agent taking over for just one month. Might not yet be time for HMRC to have reacted yet, though.

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to rezasamii
15th Jul 2018 11:54

rezasamii wrote:

Thank you Tom. Very informative. Does this mean that the "Year - to - Date" values that the previous agents have provided us now to do the July payroll are wrong ? How can I correct the submitted June FPS ? They seem to have just used the Employee numbers: 1,2,5,14,26, etc... with gaps representing the past leavers and did not bother with the 16 characters.

The previous agents (B) used Iris, you say, which I think may not have the 16 character reference as a separate field. If they took over from Sage RTI filings (A) from April and May then the whole situation feels very difficult to resolve, as you may not be able to secure knowledge of the RTI references used by the (A) agent...

I'd guess that HMRC RTI enquiries department has the capacity to iron all of this out at their end, but in my prior experience that can take some time, and as another poster has commented, in the meantime employees get issued with spurious tax codes.

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to TomMcClelland
15th Jul 2018 12:23

Thank you Tom so much. The only good news here is the fact I know Agents A (using Sage) who will co-operate with us. In fact they were asked by the company to do parallel run for "June payroll" as a check on Agent B (using IRIS) when all the incompetence, including complete ignorance of the Sage 16 character, showed up.

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By Matrix
to rezasamii
15th Jul 2018 13:59

I agree that if the new employee codes were only used for June then the new tax codes may not have been issued yet. It is really hard to sort this out since HMRC will only speak to the employee but since there are 80 employees you may be able to write in asking HMRC to delete the duplicate employment record if it has been created. You need to find this out whether this is an issue first.

Why are the employer changing payroll agents after just one month?

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to Matrix
15th Jul 2018 14:17

Dear Matrix. Agents A (original agents and using Sage) pulling out of Payroll Services, replaced by Agents B (using IRIS) and doing June payroll only for being incompetent and replaced by us(Agent C & using Sage). Not only were they unaware of RTI Id, they managed to get 50% of the net salaries and pensions wrong. Do you think that it is better for them to continue rather us ? I do not mind as this seems to be a big mess !

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By Matrix
to rezasamii
15th Jul 2018 14:42

What a mess, maybe recommend to the employer to resubmit June then.

There is no excuse for getting the net figures wrong if they were given the correct information but before this thread I had never come across the RTI id issue. Although I would check before issuing a ref to each employee myself.

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to Matrix
15th Jul 2018 15:35

Thank you Matrix. I will recommend the June resubmission to the client.

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By Matrix
to rezasamii
15th Jul 2018 16:09

Note that this may not resolve the duplicate employment issue if it has been created. You would either need to submit an RTI with exactly those June employee refs with nil YTD pay or write to HMRC or get 80 people to call up and get the duplicate employment deleted. You need to find out if the duplicate employment exists first.

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By SXGuy
15th Jul 2018 13:19

Hold up. It was the 16 digit employee reference that threw me. I'm sure what your all referring to is an employee unique ID and payroll number. Both of these have to match the old software so hmrc knows its the Same employee.

For me, using keytime. There's not 16 digit length. The payroll number can be 1,2,3 etc and the ID I usually just use surname and initial.

Never have I needed anything else to match employees.

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to SXGuy
15th Jul 2018 13:28

SXGuy wrote:

Hold up. It was the 16 digit employee reference that threw me. I'm sure what your all referring to is an employee unique ID and payroll number. Both of these have to match the old software so hmrc knows its the Same employee.

For me, using keytime. There's not 16 digit length. The payroll number can be 1,2,3 etc and the ID I usually just use surname and initial.

Never have I needed anything else to match employees.

That's because you aren't using Sage or inheriting cutover data from Sage. Sage generates a random 16 character ID for each employee record, and attaches that to RTI FPS filings as the RTI ID. It doesn't use the conventional "employee number". So when you switch from Sage mid-year that is the employee number that you must use, at least in the first period of FPS filing. If you subsequently alter it to something more sensible (such as in your case surname and initial) your software should detect that and automatically file a "employee ID changed" segment in the next FPS.

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By SXGuy
to TomMcClelland
15th Jul 2018 17:51

Thanks for that. Learn something new everyday.

Will bare that in mind should I ever come across an existing payroll using sage.

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to SXGuy
16th Jul 2018 08:00

SXGuy wrote:

Thanks for that. Learn something new everyday.

Will bare that in mind should I ever come across an existing payroll using sage.

Ditto. We use Moneysoft & just tick the box that says “current employee”.

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By aland
16th Jul 2018 12:57

I'm not familiar with either software, but it seems that you might be well advised to get the Parallel June Sage data from A and start from there, possibly re-submitting June using that if it has produced what are considered to be the correct figures.
If there are duplicate employees, IRIS may then need to re-submit with zero YTD's to get rid of them.
Above may be beyond the call of duty, but it may make it easier for you in the long run.

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to aland
16th Jul 2018 20:04

Dear Aland. That makes perfect sense and consistent with what Tom and Matrix have said. I will get in touch with A. I am still waiting for Agent B to confirm the duplication of staff after they calling HMR&C as suggested in earlier threads. Regards.

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19th Jul 2018 12:40

rezasamii wrote:

We have been asked to take over the payroll processing for a company with 80 employees for July. The previous payroll agents were using IRIS System whereas we are using Sage 50 Payroll Software. Am I correct in assuming that in addition to usual employees' details, i.e. Name, NINO, Address, we also need the long 16 character RTI Works/Employee number to be copied over into our Sage System (along with other details and Year-to-Date values) ? When we asked the previous payroller, this was the first time they had heard about RTI Employee reference to be used this way. The worrying thing is the fact they had acquired this client from an earlier agents using Sage. They seem to have successfully e-filed June FPS without thinking twice about obtaining the RTI no's from the previous agents. Can you please help as we are getting conflicting views and opinions from Software providers as well as from HMR&C.

In an ideal world getting the RTI reference number would be great, In reality you never get it.

You can get round this by selecting edit the RTI id and selecting unknown or not set, but this is only when entering the new employee manually. I am not sure if this can be done if importing the data.

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19th Jul 2018 15:15

My concern is, using SAGE 50 Payroll.
Surely a blight on humanity.

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