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CIS Suffered disappeared from Agent account

When was CIS suffered removed from the Agent PAYE account?

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I have come to reconcile a client's PAYE/CIS, to find the CIS suffered is missing from the Agent gateway account.  I'm unsure as to when this was removed.  Or has it been moved?  Does anyone know where to find this info now please?  

Thank you kindly.

Replies (17)

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Danny Kent
By Viciuno
18th May 2022 13:59

Not too sure exactly what you are missing? The CIS suffered element from the PAYE account? The ability to submit CIS returns via your agent gateway? Or just the detail of the submissions made.

If it is the latter does your client use a 3rd party to submit the returns (like Xero)? If so you won't find that detail there, you will need to get that from whoever made the submissions.

I've just been on ours and the CIS module is still there.

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By MCV71
18th May 2022 14:06

Deleted, misread question

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By rmillaree
18th May 2022 15:01

the cis suffered should simply show up within the credits on the online breakdown of paye due you will need to click on breakdown for each month to fine it - i am presuming you want to check credits submitted are being credited and not book amounts suffered via agent gateway (not sure that is even possible as its an eps (or is that fps?) entry ?) .

Note there may be timing here so credit may not be where you expect them to be and i have seen credit simply sat as being "unalocated credit" in which case it should be findable on the summary area ref paye o/s balance. All findable view the blue paye area not the green un !!

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Replying to rmillaree:
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By LAKE
18th May 2022 16:02

I know where it normally is. I have just checked a few other clients and CIS suffered is there as normal. It is strange that for this one client the CIS suffered doesn't show under the 'credits' section. Oh well, onwards we go. Thank you!

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Replying to rmillaree:
Johny Fartpants Picture
By johnny fartpants
18th May 2022 16:03

Same as rmillaree. Mine still show in the "credits" section on the monthly breakdown. This is for last tax year mind. Nothing showing for my clients in the current tax year as I haven't submitted the payroll return for April yet.

Are you trying to reconcile the current or last tax year? If current, is it a timing issue before the figures show??

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Replying to johnny fartpants:
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By LAKE
18th May 2022 16:15

It was last tax year. Not one month has CIS Suffered in the 'credits' section which I haven't seen before now. It does have the 'unallocated credit' total though. It's fine - just haven't seen this before! Thank you

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Replying to rmillaree:
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By Hugo Fair
18th May 2022 16:10

FWIW ... I'm sure you know, but you did say "as its an eps (or is that fps?) entry ?"

"Value of CIS deductions suffered year to date" is a data item in the RTI EPS.
As it is a YTD value, if it has been reported via an EPS then the current YTD value must be supplied for the remainder of the tax year on all further EPS submissions.

Note:
"If your business is a limited company operating within the construction industry, any CIS deductions taken from the company's payments for construction work should be set against the company's own liabilities for PAYE/NICs and CIS deductions from its own subcontractors."

BUT "If the business is not a limited company, or has not had deductions taken from payments within CIS, you must not enter anything in the EPS field. Non-limited companies should claim CIS deductions on their Self Assessment / Partnership returns, as appropriate."

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Replying to Hugo Fair:
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By MCV71
18th May 2022 21:25

I had a debate about this in a social media payroll user group. The other person was adamant she puts CIS deducted for a sole trader payroll in the CIS suffered box and HMRC have always processed it. She said why should he not be able to do this when limited companies can!

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Replying to MCV71:
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By Hugo Fair
18th May 2022 22:27

I can't answer the 'Why', but it was ever thus.

My extracts are from HMRC's RTI Data Item Guide (part of the specification issued to Payroll developers) ... which, in the very first edition for 2012-13, said "You will only need to make an entry if you are a limited company that has had CIS deductions made from payments you received for work in the construction industry."

The current guidance (more explicitly forbidding usage when NOT a limited company) was introduced for 2018-19, and has remained unchanged ever since.

Whether HMRC have the willpower to do anything when the data item is 'incorrectly' completed is unknown to me ... but it'd be easy for their systems to spot (no COTAX Ref value) and is exactly the sort of contravention that they use to pass the blame onto the employer IF anything goes wrong in the future!

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Replying to Hugo Fair:
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By kathyk0410
19th May 2022 09:18

From 22/23 onwards you have to enter a COTAX reference on the EPS as otherwise, it fails. You may already have this on your software but we didn't so this caught us out ... BrightPay came to our rescue. Not sure it would work with a SA UTR?

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Replying to kathyk0410:
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By Hugo Fair
19th May 2022 11:47

COTAX reference and SA UTR have existed as data items since RTI went fully live in 2013-14 (having previously been omitted during the Pilot stage).
And the instruction has always been that the appropriate value (only if applicable of course) is supposed to be included with each submission.

The only change of which I'm aware is that both data items were originally only within the FPS ... but as of the current tax year COTAX reference is now on the EPS as well as on the FPS (but SA UTR remains on the FPS only).
The instruction remains unchanged, hence why you encountered the validation error if you tried to submit an EPS for a company without providing the COTAX.

Not sure how Brightpay missed all that as it was explicitly listed in the Changes History of the RTI_Data_Item_Guide_22-23 published in Sept last year.

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Replying to Hugo Fair:
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By kathyk0410
20th May 2022 11:05

My point was that before April 22 you could submit an EPS for CIS suffered without a COTAX reference - we submitted numerous of these in the past and all were accepted by HMRC - as although the CoTAX was a field we had not always entered it as part of the file set up. My understanding from the exchange of emails from BrightPay support is that this changed in April 22 - did find an AWeb article (tagged "Construction") alluding to this change but can't find it now.

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Replying to kathyk0410:
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By Hugo Fair
20th May 2022 12:58

And my point was that although I'm happy if "BrightPay came to our rescue", it can only have been after they'd messed up by failing to read/implement the change in specification that had been published in plenty of time.

I don't know their software, but in most packages you (the user) don't enter data direct into the FPS or EPS ... you enter it into the Payroll software, which in turn generates the submission files.
So even if you had previously been entering the COTAX value, it would never have appeared in any EPS prior to this tax year (as that file didn't contain the data item in the spec); whereas from April '22 onwards it must (where relevant) do so.
Conversely if you had not previously been entering the COTAX value, you would not have encountered a problem until your EPS for Month 1 of this year.

In short, the problem was that HMRC changed the spec and BrightPay apparently failed to take account of that change. That's all folks!

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Replying to Hugo Fair:
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By rmillaree
20th May 2022 14:45

Ok this is a useful thread

I have been putting moneysoft through the ringer today on this subject , their responses have been "slightly sketchy"

I was originally told by them that if the company UTR was not shown in the "corporation tax ref" field - then the system would block the submision. I checked an eps we filed on 9th May and lo and behold we had the UTR in the "unique tax ref." box and the submision was processed - i am not panicking but the credit aint shopwed up yet.

I did quizz the poor moneysoft represntative on the slighly confusing nature of the "corporation tax ref" filed and the "unique tax ref." field both being the same thig practicably speaking - and he advised that that is not always the case.

I suspect there was an element of the answers i was being given as the most likely explanation from soemone who did know the full exact details of what should be used - perhaps the "unique tax ref." should be used for sole traders perhaps ? - i am left unsure which box to enter utr in or whetehr to use both boxes - then gentleman i spoke to did say it is probably safewr to put in both boxes. I may at some stage quizz em more on this area - unless anyone here can confirm which of the two boxes should be used. If we have used the wrong one and monyesoft has not blocked the submission that should be flagged up if credit does not turn up soon.

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Replying to rmillaree:
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By Hugo Fair
20th May 2022 16:20

I've no idea what Moneysoft calls various data-entry fields in its software - or whether you're referring to a sole trader or partnership or limited company?

But, for the avoidance of doubt, there are two distinct data items within RTI:
* SA UTR = Enter your Self Assessment Unique Tax Reference, if applicable. (For example if you are a sole proprietor or partnership.)
* COTAX reference = Enter your Corporation Tax reference, if applicable. (For example if you are a limited company.)

The 'instructions' for both are that they are always 'to be sent if applicable' - but only where the file being submitted includes that data item in its format.
In the case of the SA UTR this only applies to each FPS; whereas for the COTAX reference this applies to both the FPS and (since Month 1 this year) the EPS.

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Replying to Hugo Fair:
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By rmillaree
20th May 2022 16:58

Cheers for that Hugo - i am talking about client known to be limited company - for sole traders the cis reclaim simply isnt relevant.

I have drilled into the eps we have submited for 5/5/2022 and the cis suffered does not appear in the rti detailed submision data despite being present on the on the summary page that you view. I am begining to suspect leaving the corporation tax reference box blank therefore might be causing issues.

It seems too coincidental moneysoft have the "unique tax ref box" and the other box you mention is SA UTR. Moneysoft does not sem to have an SA UTR box

Note the moneysoft dude was entirely isntant that 2 boxes were needed as there is the change the coproration tax reference number may not be the same as the UTR !!! - that really makes little sense as the UTR is the coproration tax reference as i am sure we would all agree. Note even their written guidance indicates the corp tax reference may be different from the UTR.

Per moneysoft
"Please note that when submitting CIS suffered figures on an EPS from April 2022 onward, you must have the correct Corporation Tax reference entered in the ‘Employer – Employer Details – Tax Office‘ screen. This reference consists of 10 digits, ( e.g. in the format 1234567895), and is usually the same as the UTR for that employer."

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Replying to rmillaree:
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By kathyk0410
20th May 2022 18:26

Ok hope you get sorted. Until this month, we only had the Corporation Tax Reference in the Employer details for files for which we file CIS payable returns. So Hugo is correct in saying that we only came across this issue in month 1 for Employers with only CIS suffered. However, been spooked out as where we have entered the COTAX reference in the Employer details, the software (BrightPay) has duplicated it in the field box (Self Assessment Unique Tax Reference (UTR) even though they are all limited companies - so your "dude" at Moneysoft may be right. Then bizarrely which I hadn't noticed before, on the FPS submission it is then shown as the Self Assessment UTR.

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