Class 2 NI 23 24

52 0r 53 weeks

Didn't find your answer?

I have run a client's figures through third party and HMRC software to check that he has completed things correctly (it's what he wants to do!).

HMRC SA software only charges NI for 52 weeks but the Taxfiler Iris says 53. Is there a definitive correct answer?

 

Replies (34)

Please login or register to join the discussion.

RLI
By lionofludesch
16th Apr 2024 18:27

52.

It's how many Sundays (or is it Mondays?) there are in the year to 5th April.

https://www.accountingweb.co.uk/any-answers/class-2-ni-1819-52-or-53-weeks

Folk get confused because they see week 53 on their PAYE. But it's only a 53 week year if your payday is Thursday or Friday. If it's any other day, it's a 52 week year for PAYE.

Thanks (2)
Replying to lionofludesch:
avatar
By carnmores
16th Apr 2024 19:55

Aha

Thanks (0)
avatar
By Laurence52
16th Apr 2024 19:15

NIM20200 reads:
Where a person is liable to pay Class 2 National Insurance contributions (NICs), Class 2 NICs are due for each contribution week or part of a week that a person was self-employed. So, where a person was self-employed and liable to pay Class 2 NICs for part or all of one day in a week, liability arises for one week’s NICs due at the weekly flat rate.

A ‘contribution week’ is defined as a period of seven days beginning with midnight between Saturday and Sunday. The first day of the contribution week is Sunday and Saturday is the last. The first week of the contribution year starts on the first Sunday after 5 April.

I think that makes 52 weeks for 2023/24. That is in line with the Class 2 figure on the additional information page for clients on the HMRC site for agents.

However page TCSN 35 of the HMRC Tax calculation guide is showing 53 weeks class 2 as step 3 near the bottom of the page. Although that part is used for someone with a mix of employment and self employment income, the part relating to class 2 near the top of the page doesn't state the number of weeks to be used. So it looks as if Taxfiler is taking the 53 weeks from that. I don't know what other tax programs are using but they do model their calculations after the HMRC calculation guide.

Thanks (4)
Replying to Laurence52:
avatar
By carnmores
16th Apr 2024 19:55

Marvelous reply

Thanks (1)
Replying to Laurence52:
avatar
By Ardeninian
23rd Apr 2024 12:21

The calculation in the bottom part of TCSN35 is following the regulation 100 calculation for NICs maxima, which mandates using 53 times the Class 2 rate in force for the year regardless of how many contribution weeks there are in the year - https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2001/1004/regulation/100

Thanks (1)
Replying to Ardeninian:
avatar
By FactChecker
23rd Apr 2024 12:35

That is the calculation for deriving the "Annual maximum of Class 4 contributions due under section 15 of the Act" ... the only references to 'class 2' being constraints within the calculation (nothing to do with the number of weeks for which class 2 are due as per OP's post).

Thanks (2)
Replying to FactChecker:
RLI
By lionofludesch
23rd Apr 2024 12:42

FactChecker wrote:

That is the calculation for deriving the "Annual maximum of Class 4 contributions due under section 15 of the Act" ... the only references to 'class 2' being constraints within the calculation (nothing to do with the number of weeks for which class 2 are due as per OP's post).

Quite.

Thanks (1)
Replying to Ardeninian:
RLI
By lionofludesch
23rd Apr 2024 12:39

Ardeninian wrote:

The calculation in the bottom part of TCSN35 is following the regulation 100 calculation for NICs maxima, which mandates using 53 times the Class 2 rate in force for the year regardless of how many contribution weeks there are in the year - https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2001/1004/regulation/100

Taken completely out of context, I'm afraid.

Thanks (1)
avatar
By Laurence52
16th Apr 2024 19:18

Using Absolute tax software I'm getting 52 weeks.

Thanks (2)
avatar
By Paul Crowley
16th Apr 2024 20:16

The software offerings are supposed to follow HMRC calculations, even if HMRC are wrong.
It is only £3.45
Not worth getting excited about, but frustrating to have inconsistencies. Full fat Iris gives 52 weeks £179.40

Thanks (2)
Replying to Paul Crowley:
avatar
By rmillaree
22nd Apr 2024 15:46

"The software offerings are supposed to follow HMRC calculations, even if HMRC are wrong."

there is clearly wriggle room here - btc allows us to enter the figure we want to use - this is really handy if for example hmrc are slightly slow at updating their NI systems and their number is wrong (ef ceased in year) - that gives us ability to send out return with out preferred total and get hmrc to update benfore calc processed. Note hmrc do generally default to their number at processing - although i dont know for sure if they automatically always update between 52 week and 53 weeks numbers if they are the wrong way round.

Thanks (2)
Replying to Paul Crowley:
avatar
By carnmores
23rd Apr 2024 10:27

It is particilarly annoying when out SA302 sub does not agree with client's TYO and a lot of faffing about is reqired

Thanks (0)
avatar
By AdamJones82
25th Apr 2024 16:23

I submitted a Return through Taxcalc, they showed 52 weeks, and it's been processed by HMRC without alteration.
Checked Iris Elements (which thankfully I don't pay for for much longer) and it's 53 weeks on there. Another takeover with defective software being the outcome

Thanks (2)
Replying to AdamJones82:
avatar
By carnmores
25th Apr 2024 17:30

Are you paying more for Taxcalc? Is taxfiler / elements wrong or are HMRC?

Thanks (0)
Replying to carnmores:
RLI
By lionofludesch
25th Apr 2024 17:45

carnmores wrote:

Are you paying more for Taxcalc? Is taxfiler / elements wrong or are HMRC?

It's 52. HMRC are right. Iris are wrong.

Thanks (1)
Replying to lionofludesch:
avatar
By rmillaree
26th Apr 2024 09:19

How does iris elements work when its only part year self employed - on btc we have additional box where we enter figure we want (that cross tallies to hmrc api data too helpfully) - so we are always in control of what is included on return.

Does iris elements not have option to do the amount of weeks you need? if thats the case can that option noty be used here?

Thanks (1)
Replying to lionofludesch:
avatar
By Paul Crowley
16th May 2024 00:23

Only Elements, not full fat IRIS.

Thanks (0)
Replying to carnmores:
avatar
By AdamJones82
25th Apr 2024 18:06

Have a guess. Iris are involved so the usual take over a product and cannibalise it and make it worse. And in this case incorrect

Thanks (1)
Replying to carnmores:
avatar
By AdamJones82
25th Apr 2024 18:07

I pay more but after 18 months of bug filled software have a workable product

Thanks (0)
Replying to AdamJones82:
avatar
By carnmores
25th Apr 2024 19:00

I have been using Taxfiler for yonks
I will trail elements next week
Too old to change all my software;-)

Thanks (0)
Replying to carnmores:
avatar
By carnmores
25th Apr 2024 19:02

I'm so oldi remember the debacle when Iris took over Freeway payroll buggered up everybody's computer
So I ain't a fan

Thanks (1)
Replying to carnmores:
avatar
By AdamJones82
25th Apr 2024 22:37

Elements IS a change to taxfiler though, bug after bug crops up over the months

Thanks (1)
Giraffe
By Luke
02nd May 2024 11:01

Coming to this as I have just received a tax calculation for a client for whom I submitted an SA100 through taxfiler.

HMRC are correcting the class 2 NIC calculations from the 53 weeks taxfiler submitted to 52 weeks.

So the Total NI contributions shown are £3.45 lower than previously BUT the total amount due is the same as I submitted. So the new calculation does not add up.

So the HMRC payments on account figure is based on the now incorrect total less the smaller amount of class 2 NICs. Only a couple of quid different, I can't be bothered to do anything about it but will have to explain to my client.

I am losing the will to live.

At least I know to manually override the taxfiler Class 2 NICs figure on the next one I am about to produce. I have emailed taxfiler suport and await a reply.

Thanks (1)
Replying to Luke:
avatar
By rmillaree
02nd May 2024 12:18

i have seen the issue before - its not new - unfortunately i cant remember how or why it is happening. I would guess hmrc are suffering the same confusing problems ref timing issues that we are suffering.

I wander how much simpler life would be if legislation had demanded that the sum to be billed to taxpayers would alwways be maxed out at 52 weeks - then they could have doen wahtever they wanted with their damn computers and that wouldnt have affected taxpayers - or at least taxpayers would know its hmrc problem to get back to the standard figure. having 53 weeks being billed makes as much sense as having 5 on the end of the personal allowance.

Thanks (1)
Replying to Luke:
avatar
By rmillaree
02nd May 2024 12:18

i have seen the issue before - its not new - unfortunately i cant remember how or why it is happening. I would guess hmrc are suffering the same confusing problems ref timing issues that we are suffering.

I wander how much simpler life would be if legislation had demanded that the sum to be billed to taxpayers would alwways be maxed out at 52 weeks - then they could have doen wahtever they wanted with their damn computers and that wouldnt have affected taxpayers - or at least taxpayers would know its hmrc problem to get back to the standard figure. having 53 weeks being billed makes as much sense as having 5 on the end of the personal allowance.

Thanks (0)
Replying to rmillaree:
RLI
By lionofludesch
02nd May 2024 12:26

rmillaree wrote:

i have seen the issue before - its not new - unfortunately i cant remember how or why it is happening. I would guess hmrc are suffering the same confusing problems ref timing issues that we are suffering.

I wander how much simpler life would be if legislation had demanded that the sum to be billed to taxpayers would alwways be maxed out at 52 weeks - then they could have doen wahtever they wanted with their damn computers and that wouldnt have affected taxpayers - or at least taxpayers would know its hmrc problem to get back to the standard figure. having 53 weeks being billed makes as much sense as having 5 on the end of the personal allowance.

It's not HMRC, it's the DWP. They work in weeks.

You'd just swap one problem for another. It's fine as it is. Once you know you need to count the Sundays, you can decide whether it's 52 or 53 weeks with a glance at your diary.

Thanks (0)
Replying to lionofludesch:
avatar
By rmillaree
02nd May 2024 12:37

You'd just swap one problem for another.

i have no issues hmrc and the dwp doing whatever calcs they want to calculate entitlement or whatever - with regard to sending bills out though imho it could have been limited to max 52 weeks bill. Ok the system is really old now and it might be too late to change if its being scrapped but dont tell me they couldnt have had the extra line when it calculated the bill to max out demand to 52 weeks - or 13 weeks if 3 monthly bill. if nothing else it would avoid all the issues being highlighted on this thread - there may be plenty of unrepresented taxpayers giving grief over 3.45 difference on the bill.

Thanks (0)
Replying to Luke:
Giraffe
By Luke
15th May 2024 18:02

Still no response to my support query on this to taxfiler, sent on 2 May...

Thanks (1)
Replying to Luke:
avatar
By Matrix
15th May 2024 18:12

I got one. They say they are waiting for something from HMRC.

I am still adjusting manually.

Found it: Taxfiler follows the HMRC schemas to match their calculations as provided to us direct and unaltered. The SA 2023/24 has not been updated yet as this will not be done until late April 2024, this will include the NIC calculation to be updated.

Thanks (0)
Replying to Matrix:
avatar
By carnmores
15th May 2024 18:37

so will it be 53?
its also 52 in Elements

Thanks (0)
Replying to carnmores:
Giraffe
By Luke
15th May 2024 18:54

It's currently 53 in Taxfiler but I got an SA302 from HMRC changing it to 52 weeks for a client.

Thanks (0)
Replying to carnmores:
avatar
By Matrix
15th May 2024 19:21

It is 52 but Taxfiler is still 53.

Ooh I am looking forward to moving to Elements now……

Thanks (0)
Replying to carnmores:
RLI
By lionofludesch
15th May 2024 19:27

carnmores wrote:

so will it be 53?
its also 52 in Elements

Mate - it's 52. Definite.

Iris saying 53 is probably the reason it's late. It won't match HMRC's protocols.

Thanks (0)
Replying to carnmores:
avatar
By AdamJones82
15th May 2024 20:40

That's only just changed, they had it at 53 weeks too

Thanks (0)