Cloud Bookkeeping

Cloud Bookkeeping

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Dear All,

I am currently in the process of trialling some software which is a bookkeeping service stored in the 'cloud', as part of a process of getting my firm to embrace technology.

I was wondering if anyone would be willing to give me their feedback on any similar systems they have trialled or have experience of in the real world.

Does anyone have practical experience of using Iris OpenBooks (or FreeAgent) or KashFlow or Xero? And what are there experiences of them?

Any comments would be hugely helpful.

Regards

mh

Replies (28)

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By cverrier
29th Sep 2010 12:30

FreeAgent / OpenBooks

I've been using FreeAgent for over two years and have never regretted the decision.    I've never had problems using the system, and the company has been highly responsive to questions and feature-requests.    As a product, it's quite specifically geared to small professional-services businesses, so no stock control or CIS support, for example, but it's fine for my consulting business.

It calculates and submits my VAT returns for me (Flat rate scheme fully supported), it keeps a running total of my future Corporation Tax and VAT liabilities, and runs simple payroll, including generating payslips.  It has timesheets and expenses with options to store scanned images of receipts alongisde each expense item.  It can generate nice looking bills and statements, and can automatically email them to my clients (including sending follow-up reminder emails).  It imports my banks' electronic statements and has a pretty good stab at auto-allocating transactions.  It generates dividend vouchers automatically.

There are a few 3rd-party add-ons appearing - I use a nice one that lets me enter expenses on my iPhone (including taking a photo of the receipt) and auto-updating the data immediately to my books.  I usually have my train fare claims posted by the time I get where I'm going!

What doesn't it do?   Cashflow forecasting, budgets, fancy management reporting, year on year comparatives, stock control or manufacturing support.  Better P11D analysis would be nice too.  The Chart of Accounts is pretty much fixed, so if you have a need for atypical P&L codes - you can't add new accounts.  You can do journals, but I think they'd rather you didn't!

The fact that's it's a cloud--based app never really makes an impact. The big benefit is that updates (VAT rate changes for example) are handled automatically - no need to do software updates at my end.  I also don't need to worry about backups, cos that's their problem!

 

 

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By MH1982
29th Sep 2010 16:34

FreeAgent

Charles,

I thank you for your very insightful comments re free agent. I am leaning towards Iris OpenBooks (essentially FreeAgent for the accountant) and am inspired further by your comments.

I would like to ask, have you had any experience of say Xero or KashFlow? and if so why you opted for FreeAgent over those or any others you may have considered?

Again I thank you for your comments they are greatly appreciated and useful

Thanks

mh

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By Richard Messik
29th Sep 2010 17:19

E-conomic

 You might like to look at E-conomic www.e-conomic.co.uk. This is a fully featured system which scales easily from 1 man businesses to large entities. It handles stock, project and departmental accounting and works well with standard statutory accounts software such as Viztopia (CCH) Caseware and others. Well worth a look.

 

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By cverrier
29th Sep 2010 17:33

Openbooks

FreeAgent is specifically aimed at small/micro businesses and freelancers - so the mix of features (good and bad) suits me perfectly .  The real-time tracking of tax is, I believe, unique (Gary and Duane - feel free to correct me), and that really helps me manage my cashflow, which for a small business, is all-important.

As far as the other two - I can't claim detailed knowledge of them, and I certainly didn't deliberately reject them. FreeAgent seemed right, and my experience with the free trial went very well, so I didn't look any further.

I really like Xero - they raised the bar for what using a bookkeeping product should be like (and that's any bookkeeping product, not just SaaS ones) - and I've followed their progress for years (I used to work for its' main Aussie competitor - MYOB) and would tell anyone who would listen to watch them.   I suspect (I can't remember now) that the UK version of Xero wasn't launched at the time I was looking.

I don't think I even knew about e-conomic at the time -  I do recall thinking Easycounting was interesting but it was only for Vantis clients, which I wasn't.   I wasn't ignoring you, Richard - Honest!

 

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By edmoly
30th Sep 2010 14:27

OpenBooks FreeAgent Chart of Accounts

Charles, thanks for your kind words about OpenBooks/FreeAgent.

Even as we speak we're busy incorporating much more flexibility into the Chart of Accounts, and that's scheduled to be in our very next release.

It's the single most important thing our (and IRIS's) practice customers are telling us should be improved and, as you know by now, listening is what we're good at!

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By MH1982
30th Sep 2010 15:27

OpenBooks

Hi edmoly,

Thank you for viewing my post.

I was wondering if you could you tell me from your point of view what are the standout features of OpenBooks/FreeAgent?

Particularly from a practice point of view, what in your opinion makes OpenBooks/FreeAgent superior to its competitors?

Your comments, like Charles' have been, would be hugely appreciated.

Regards

hh

 

 

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By edmoly
04th Oct 2010 13:51

IRIS OpenBooks / FreeAgent

Hi hh

I should start by saying Xero and KashFlow are both very good products - certainly a big step forward compared to desktop software or spreadsheets.

But IRIS OpenBooks/FreeAgent does have much more comprehensive support for UK-based companies than either Xero or KashFlow. For example, we think it's important for business owners to have a good idea of their tax position, so we generate pretty accurate projections of VAT, Corporation Tax, Income Tax and PAYE/NI liabilities. This Tax Timeline also includes key filing dates for tax returns, annual returns and annual accounts, so business owners are much more aware of their compliance responsibilities. Other time-savers are included such as automatic generation of Dividend Vouchers and direct integration with IRIS Accounts Production software.

In the case of VAT, we have a period-to-period model which allows us to correctly handle for example the switch from Invoice-basis to Cash-basis calculations, fuel scale charges and the automatic posting of VAT Flat Rate Scheme journals. And you can of course file the VAT Return online from directly within the software (also possible with KashFlow but not Xero)

I'm not sure what Xero and KashFlow's customer satisfaction figures are, but in a survey we conducted at the beginning of the year 99.5% of our users said they would recommend us to a friend or colleague - and as you know a happy client is much more likely to maintain his/her books accurately!

Do drop me a line directly if you have any specific questions (ed at freeagentcentral dot com)

Cheers

Ed

 

Ed Molyneux
Founder and CEO
FreeAgent Central Ltd
 

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By StephenElms
08th Oct 2010 10:56

Where is it to be stored?

 A note of caution: A) do ensure that you are registered under the DPA and B) assuming that you are - then where is your data going to be stored? It MUST be within the EU.  Do not assume otherwise.

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By jasonholden
08th Oct 2010 11:03

winweb
Have you looked at winweb, version 6 is due out soon, not only does the new version have many improvements on the current of which speed is only one, but winwewb have committed to adding regular weekly improvements this will allow users to make regular requests that will get implimented once 5 or more requests are made.

Winweb is certainly worth consideration in your current list.

Jason

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By MH1982
08th Oct 2010 11:19

comments

Ed, Jason, Stephen,

Thank you for your further replies to my post, I'm taking all your comments into consideration.

You have given me more food for thought.

Thanks

hh

(Ed - I am in the process of composing an email re specifics, I hope this is OK)

 

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By cverrier
08th Oct 2010 11:20

DPA
@stephenelms is quite correct - you should be registered for the Data Protection Act, but that's not something unique to SaaS applications - you should be registered with DPA if you use ANY kind of software to store client personal information.

FreeAgent, Kashflow and Xero all use UK based data-centres, so there are no DPA issues around using them.

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By David2e
08th Oct 2010 11:22

Partner Offers

We have some partner offers from some of the software mentioned here that may help you get extra value and save.

E-conomic
KashFlow
WinWeb

Each are a little different and I know those that users have been quite pleased with each of them.  E-conomic and KashFlow also integrate with online payroll software, MyPAYE.

Hopefully one of those offers will be beneficial for you!

David Toohey
The Accountants Circle

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By 10sectom
08th Oct 2010 11:23

KashFlow

I can highly recommend KashFlow to SMEs. I have tried many others and in all cases dropped the test at an early stage due to some frustration or other. I also agree with another respondent that the SaaS model itself is not an issue. Quite the opposite. Immediate benefit from developments and lack of backup concerns and admin are worth it.

KashFlow, unlike others I have tried, is intuitive to use, does everything in the way that I want and expect and is completely flexible. Anything can be changed at a later date if you don't like the way you set it up. COA, for example, which is also mentioned elsewhere. It doesn't have cash and tax planning features, but I am sure these will be forthcoming in due course.

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By Anne Fairpo
08th Oct 2010 11:42

Another possibility

I've used FreshBooks (http://www.freshbooks.com), which is a bookkeeping (time/expenses/invoicing) service only rather than a full-blown accounting system - I rather like it, and it is straightforward to use (and inexpensive).  it doesn't do the all-singing, all-dancing reporting that other systems can do, but you originally mentioned that you were looking for a bookkeeping option, so I thought I'd mention it.  

The servers storing the information are in the US but are hosted by Rackspace, which has Safe Harbor accreditation.  The Safe Harbor scheme is a US data protection scheme accepted by the Information Commissioner as adequate for DPA purposes (http://www.ico.gov.uk/for_organisations/data_protection/the_guide/princi...).

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By woodgate53
08th Oct 2010 12:10

Re: Twinfield

I have been using Twinfield for 5 years at Goodman Jones.  The system itself has been around for 10 years and currently has 40,000 users.  Our team like using it.

It works very well for our clients and is particularly good at reporting and multi-currency.  To get a better flavour of Twinfield we put together a video www.youtube.com/watch when Andre (the founder visited) our office one afternoon - not quite BBC production values as it is homemade, but you may find it helpful.

 

 

 

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By fionamcke
08th Oct 2010 14:34

Warning

Somebody told me of a client using cloud software package and the company went into liquidation, he has no data backup elsewhere and cannot access his own accounting data.

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By 10sectom
08th Oct 2010 14:47

Backups

Liquidator or anyone who can demonsrate authenticity should be able to get it from the software company. Also, whilst you do not have to keep backups, you can elect to have them auto sent (certainly with KashFlow) by email at intervals you choose.

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By David2e
08th Oct 2010 14:48

Fair warning but should be solutions available

Fiona does give a fair warning but having regular data backups made available or automatically sent out can certainly provide some peace of mind with that risk.  Many SaaS vendors should be considering this and providing a solution so it may be worth double checking.

David Toohey
The Accountants Circle

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By 10sectom
08th Oct 2010 14:53

KashFlow Link

KashFlow

Anyone interested in trying KashFlow (free 60 day trial at present) can access by clicking the link above.

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By hackeron
11th Nov 2010 02:22

KashFlow doesn't compare to FreeAgent...

KashFlow, really? – I’m just evaluating an accountancy cloud package that’s right for me, and FreeAgent really stands out. It can do all this that KashFlow just can’t:

1) Expenses and Car Mileage Claims – I can not only enter miles per person per trip and let FreeAgent figure out the rest (even shows the 40p per mile out of Corporate Tax and adds the VAT to my VAT return only if I have the receipt, brilliant!), I can see reports on who in the company expensed what and even see things like mileage per project. Expense handling is very clunky in KashFlow by comparison.

2) Receipt attachment – I don’t want to write a reference code on each receipt and file it in folders, why doesn’t anyone else let you upload the receipt and throw it away? – FreeAgent does.

3) Managing bank transactions – I import all transactions, then I get a list of anything “unexplained” and I can then do things like – hmm, mcdonalds, right that would be dividends to me as I forgot my personal card so used the business one – or that was a part purchased for project b – and FreeAgent has up to date categories so it figures out how much if any of the item you can claim back from VAT and corporation tax – while giving you manual override if needed! – Again, years ahead of KashFlow – how exactly do I tell cashflow that a transaction is a Benefit in Kind for a specific employee without creating multiple transaction types per employee/director?

4) Built in support for dividends – sure I can create a separate account for every share holder, but built in dividends support is great especially when I can select a transaction, then set type: Payment Made To User -> Shareholder Name -> Dividends/Expense Payment/Benefit in Kind, etc – the categories change depending on type and where relevant, the shareholder names show up.

5) I really like the flow of FreeAgent – everything is so beautiful and easy and explained to you. I click on the Taxes tab and it shows Self Assessment, Corporation Tax, PAYE & NI, VAT all right there with due dates and values.

I’m still evaluating packages so I may not end up with FreeAgent, but KashFlow can't do any of this, it seems like a different class of product really. Am I missing something?

 

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By 10sectom
11th Nov 2010 08:34

KashFlow and FreeAgent...

I accept that these two (and other) products may suit different businesses. Some of the functionality you describe for FA that is not avaiable in KF is nontheless easily handled in KF without the need for a special feature. And KF is younger than FA as a product. What I like about KF (and it has some frustrations like all products) is that it is so flexible. As a platform it promises to become the best as it grows. In the meantime, for small businesses it keeps it simple.

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By hackeron
11th Nov 2010 09:18

FreeAgent vs KashFlow

@tomhart - Huh? The functionality I list is not handled in KashFlow at all: You need to set up workarounds like making yourself a supplier, then making purchase invoices and managing your expenses like a mileage log separately. Then maybe writing reference numbers on your expenses and receipts and keeping them in physical files by month. Or setting up separate transaction types for each employee expenses and shareholder dividends, not good :(

Also, how does it promise to be the best? - I first looked at KashFlow about a year ago and raised some of the lack of features (such as attachments). I guess they added multi currency but FreeAgent has improved quicker over this time and I don't see KashFlow catching up, I guess time will tell.

And focus on small business? - I am a small business... And as a small business, FreeAgent seems to be in a whole different class of product to KashFlow - while KashFlow handles the bare minimum and expects you to do a lot of things manually (i.e. not simple for small business at all, it's not even obvious how to add a petrol receipt without advice from an accountant...). FreeAgent on the other hand added a lot of polish and effort to hold your hand and advice you every step of the way with best practices and features that help you from start to finish.

It's just so easy, I add a mileage log or an expense or a transaction and it will figure out the tax codes, rates, what can be expensed, what transactions match what invoice - I never need to enter anything twice. It will also show me information like expenses per project or person which is so important for a small business.

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By 10sectom
11th Nov 2010 09:57

Feature comparisons

Guess we'll have to agree to differ. I also am a small business and it does most things I need.

"it's not even obvious how to add a petrol receipt without advice from an accountant". Don't understand. Its as easy as pie. Never had a client ask me how to do this.

You don't have to put the KF ref on the receipts. Just file in date order.

I do expenses on a spreadsheet. Employees fill in the template and it is an input doc to a single transaction in KF. Call it a "workaround" if you like. But I don't want the accounting system to do more than this.

And you can upload attachments in KF.

The major addition I would need from KF is cash flow analysis & management, and auto bank download. This is what most small businesses need and the product is called KashFlow but doesn't actually do Cash Flow.

The rest is just a list of features that one product has that the other doesn't. So preferences as to which list best suits will differ. I don't get too concerned about nice-to-have gaps. Like you with FA, my experience of the responsiveness of th KF team is excellent. The beauty of all cloud systems is that these will be added when ready and there is no waiting for the next software release that never comes. My point here was that if the platform is flexible, feature gaps will be filled and will equalise over time.

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By hackeron
11th Nov 2010 10:39

KashFlow attachments, expenses, receipts

Apologies, I didn't notice KashFlow had attachments. This is good :) - Don't get me wrong, it's still way better than any desktop software I ever used, but I do like that in FreeAgent I don't need to manage expenses separately.

As for inputting a petrol receipt, in KashFlow:
1) Click on Purchases -> Add Receipt
2) I need to add a Supplier, hmm, lets call it "Petrol" - this is a workaround as it's not really a supplier
3) I need to fill in the issue date, pay due date
4) I need to tick this was paid and set a payment date
5) Then if I want to track how much petrol is used per project, I do.. no wait, I cant :(
6) If I want to track petrol use per director, I need a separate category per director
7) Even if I don't want to track per director, there is no preset category relavant for petrol? really?
8) Then I need to go into Bank and reconcile?

Also, I can't expense the entire receipt a lot of the time, only part of it, so no idea what to do about that really..

In FreeAgent:
1) Click on a transaction
2) Set project and user to director's name (optional)
3) Set category to the relevant presents available
4) Attach receipt to it, bob's your uncle

Where I can't expense the whole receipt, I expense the mileage. It just seems the flow is a lot simpler and more flexible - you aren't forced to rigid double entry accounting principals yet all the features are there if you want them.

I'm not an accountant so maybe I'm doing it all wrong. Your thoughts?

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By 10sectom
11th Nov 2010 11:25

KashFlow attachments, expenses, receipts

I may be misunderstanding, but here goes.

You process a petrol receipt as a bank payment. No need to faff around setting up a Supplier account. If you want to track by project or user, just go to Projects and set up, and enter the Project appropriate to that receipt in the Project field when you make the bank payment. Looks pretty much like the FA process you describe, really.

No reason why every employee could not be set up as a Project. It would track everything.

Easy-peasy.

Tom.

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By hackeron
11th Nov 2010 16:11

FreeAgent Support Sketchy?

What if some of the petrol was used for personal use? - We do not have company cars. Then I have to take it out of dividends and then make an expense report separately per mile as you said. Being a small business sometimes the personal account is used for business and vice versa. FreeAgent just makes things like that easier to handle.

Also if the petrol receipt was for business, if I process it as a bank payment, then where do I upload the corresponding receipt? And for projects, nice, didn't realise you need to enable projects in settings, but setting each employee as a project, then I won't be able to track the project itself. It just seems like a workaround after a workaround with KashFlow.

It's probably closer to accounting principals and maybe preferred by accounts, but you really feel like someone sat there for weeks trying to figure out how to make book keeping and accounting tasks easier at FreeAgent and a lot of the jargon is removed and workflow is changed from how an accountant would do it, to how the typical small business user would do it.

On a separate note, I had a problem importing a CSV file into FreeAgent today and their support simply dismissed it as "not sure what's wrong, here is a list of supported formats" - I've reopened the ticket. But right now, while I love the product, not so impressed with the support so far.

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By cverrier
11th Nov 2010 17:31

Freeagent support
That sounds very atypical for FreeAgent. I've had nothing but positive experiences with their support. You get to deal directly with the developers on tricky issues, so no messing about with gormless call centre staff. They even have a tame bookkeeper (Hello Emily!) on staff to make sure they can sanity check issues from an accounting perspective rather than an engineering one.

Agree that FreeAgent does expenses and mileage very well - it's just SO simple to do, and the system knows exactly how to handle the mileage and expense items in the books so they can be rebilled to the client (if you want) and the employee reimbursed. They've got a very nice "intelligent" payment system that auto-categorises any bank payments to staff - firstly allocating payments against outstanding expenses, then against net pay, and finally as a dividend, so if you're particularly disorganized - it'll do it's best to make sure your withdrawals are accounted for in the right way.

Expenses can be flagged as rechargeable or not, and they then appear on the next client invoice automatically. You can even do things like set the default rates for recharging mileage on client invoices. (I rebill clients at 20p per mile, but claim the full 40p on my expense claim - and that all just happens automatically).

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By lylo
11th Nov 2010 21:16

Re: FreeAgent support

@hackeron
I'm the CTO of FreeAgent and I was actually assigned your ticket myself today.  The original first-line support team member did initially say "I'm not sure why it isn't working" but she certainly didn't dismiss the ticket at that point.  Instead she advised you that your bank supported the QIF format which would work.  When you then told her that you definitely needed to import CSV, she politely informed you that she would run it by the technical team (me in this case) and get back to you.

From my reading her reply was swift, helpful and courteous, so I'm not sure why you found this unhelpful.  Either way I'll respond to the ticket myself now as I have a solution for you.

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