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Company accounts filed with HMRC as PDF instead of iXBRL by mistake!!!

Company accounts filed with HMRC as PDF instead...

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An issue has occurred today where a colleague has filed a number of online CT600 submissions with HMRC with accounts attached as PDF files. We use Sage CT to file online, but amazingly (it would appear) that it does not check to see what format the attached accounts are in. Furthermore HMRC's system has issued an acknowledgement of receipt for all of the accounts concerned.

(Tried calling Sage for their comments but 7th in queue and couldn't be bothered to wait!)

Has anyone else had experience of this (with Sage or otherwise)?

Does anyone happen to know what HMRC are likely to do about it?

Whilst obviously concerned about the potential consequences, I must say that I am quite amused to find that after all the hullabaloo about the 1 April iXBRL deadline the HMRC system effectively still lets PDFs through :-)

Cheers

CNE

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By Chris Wise
17th May 2011 12:19

Rejections

Don't use Sage but our software also allowed filing of PDFs (they were ones that went out earlier in the year but came back post 1 April).

The Gateway accepts them, but then HMRC send you a manual rejection requesting iXBRL accounts. None of ours were on the deadline, but I would suggest keeping your original acceptance receipt just in case there is an issue with a late filing penalty.

 

Be interesting to know what the enquiry deadline will be on small companies in these instances.

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By vtsoftware
17th May 2011 12:21

May get rejected later

HMRC still provide an option to file as a pdf but you are also meant to give a reason. There should be a box in your CT600 package to give this info.

We have had a couple of customers who have had letters from HMRC a few weeks after submission rejecting the return because a pdf of the accounts has been submitted.

Philip Hodgson
VT Software

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By David160
17th May 2011 18:37

I had a chat to a senior HMRC online official on this point
He said that HMRC computer still accepts pdf accounts and comps etc. by DESIGN. This is because there are rare occasions where iXBRL accounts etc. cannot be filed, so HMRC permit them to file pdf. I put it to him that this would confuse most people into thinking that their filing had been accepted, only to get a manual rejection after the deadline, and so get a penalty. I told him it would be easy for people (particularly as pdf was the old filing format) to attach the wrong (ie pdf) format to a return. He said he would look into getting the computer to give a warning if pdf's were filed, except for the "other" category, but the filing would still be accepted by the computer, but rejected manually.
So my advice is to refile your return as it will be rejected manually, leading to a possible penalty.

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By mumpin
17th May 2011 19:27

VT Accounts issue...

I use VT Accounts and Taxcalc.

I had a manual rejection letter from HMRC 1 month after filing a CT600. They said attachments were pdf's and I hadn't given a reason. The attachment were iXBRL's.

Phoned Taxcalc, they said it was a known HMRC bug and that I should resubmit which I did.

Waiting to see if the second submission is more successful. Bit odd that HMRC don't keep copies of their rejected submissions.

 

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By aadil
18th May 2011 00:24

I have exactly the same problem as Mumpin- Is VT aware of this p

 

I successfully filed Ixbrl computations and Ixbrl accounts (generated by VT) last month. But today I got a letter of rejection from HMRC saying that 'PDF' accounts and comps were filed instead of Ixbrl.

I spoke to TaxCalc today who cited an issue with HMRC system whereby the IXBRL accounts are incorrectly interpreted as PDF and submission cancelled.

This is quite worrying. Is VT aware of this issue?

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By vtsoftware
18th May 2011 09:16

General issue, not a VT issue

We has a user yesterday who had filed iXBRL accounts but got a letter from saying HMRC they had filed html accounts (which was not true). This is the first we heard of this sort of thing happening.

This is not an issue with VT, it could happen to accounts or computations produced by any package. It is something for HMRC to sort out.

Philip Hodgson
VT Software

PS
A user has just telephoned us to say that Taxcalc support are blaiming VT for this issue! Hence the confusion.

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By vtsoftware
23rd May 2011 13:12

Might be a tax package issue
There is a facility in HMRC's specification for the electronic filing of CT600's for the submission of the accounts in pdf format provided a reason is given. Special elements have to be set in the XML file generated by the CT600 package. Does anyone know if it is possible in Taxcalc to do the following in combination:Accidentally tick a box for submitting accounts in pdf formatNot enter a reason for the aboveAttach an iXBRL file

Has anyone had this problem with any other tax package?

Otherwise, we have to assume HMRC are sending completely spurious rejection letters. Philip HodgsonVT Software

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By Andrew Ross BTCSoftware
23rd May 2011 13:29

CT Filing with PDF

To avoid this very problem BTCSoftware's CT Solutions issue the following warning: “You have selected to attach an accounts file in PDF format. From April 1st 2011, unless there is a very good reason, accounts must be filed in iXBRL format.. If you continue to file the PDF accounts they must contain an acceptable explanation as to why you cannot file iXBRL accounts. Further, HMRC may reject this return post submission resulting in a penalty. Do you wish to continue with this submission at your own risk?"

 

-- Andrew Ross BTCSoftware

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By Andrew Ross BTCSoftware
23rd May 2011 13:30

CT Filing with PDF

To avoid this very problem BTCSoftware's CT Solutions issue the following warning: “You have selected to attach an accounts file in PDF format. From April 1st 2011, unless there is a very good reason, accounts must be filed in iXBRL format.. If you continue to file the PDF accounts they must contain an acceptable explanation as to why you cannot file iXBRL accounts. Further, HMRC may reject this return post submission resulting in a penalty. Do you wish to continue with this submission at your own risk?"

 

-- Andrew Ross BTCSoftware

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By Tosie
23rd May 2011 13:47

Tax Calc

Tax calc clearly states that the return must be ibx and issues a warning if you attempt to file a pdf

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By taxhound
23rd May 2011 13:54

PDFs

Is it not still possible to add other attachments to the CT return as a PDF, or will these be rejected?  For example, in the past I have always added a PDF showing how a loss should be dealt with, or notes to accompany an R&D claim as a PDF.

I was under the impression that this could still continue as long as the accounts and tax comps were still in the required format - I would be very interested to hear if I am wrong....

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By vtsoftware
23rd May 2011 14:17

@Tosie

 Is there a tick box in Taxcalc allowing you to attach a pdf of the accounts?

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Should Be Working ... not playing with the car
By should_be_working
23rd May 2011 14:31

VT & Keytime

FWIW, we use VT accounts with Keytime for tax - no problems.

 

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By daveforbes
23rd May 2011 16:10

@tosie
Is there a facility to see a copy of the xml that was transmitted by taxcalc ?

If you can you can email it over to philip I am sure he will be able to see if taxcalc transmitted as ixbrl or pdf.

We have no reports of this issue, either with our own accounts or VTs.

David Forbes
www.forbes.co.uk

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By daveforbes
23rd May 2011 16:17

@taxhound
It is still possible to send "other" pdfs along with your ixbrl but not all tax software supports this.

It is also possible to send pdf accounts but quite difficult I would have thought to do it accidently -- you need to put specific wording in the "no accounts reason" box on the fron of the CT200 and NOT tick the box saying accounts are attached. It has to be the specific words "PDF accounts attached with explanation".

You would then supply an "other" pdf explaining your exemption from iXBRL accounts filing (e.g. outside requirement to produce UK stat. accs.)

David Forbes
www.forbes.co.uk

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By Tosie
23rd May 2011 19:39

to vtsoftware
The options that tax calc give are as below. it warns about pdf attachments.

"You have stated that you will attach accounts (relating to this period) to the return."

Attach iXBRL Accounts P Attach PDF Accounts P Add Accounts

T

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By taz.
24th May 2011 09:08

General HMRC Issue

Dear CNE,

A few of our customers have also reported that they received letters from HMRC saying that they are unable to accept their company return. The reason being that apparently the accounts or computations have been submitted in PDF format, however upon inspection it was clear that the returns had been submitted correctly, with the accounts and computations in iXBRL format.

This issue has been occurring where other supporting PDFs have been attached alongside the return such as the MRR Worksheet. Although other PDFs such as the worksheet should be accepted, some tax offices – mostly one in particular – has unlogged these returns in error. And once unlogged these returns cannot then be retrieved.

HMRC have acknowledged this issue and HMRCs SDS team have assured us that there will be no penalty raised if the resubmission is after the legal filing date. In the meantime if you receive any more letters with the same issue then HMRC recommend you re-submit the tax return and contact the local tax office.

I hope this helps clear up the issue.

Kind Regards,

Taz Khela
TaxCalc
 

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By Tosie
24th May 2011 09:57

To David Forbes

Thank you for advice.

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By daveforbes
24th May 2011 16:36

Pedantic
I suppose the MRR calculation is part of the CT comp and therefore strictly should be in iXBRL, but a little pedantic. It will be interesting to see how all these pdf detailed P&Ls fare.

The argument for not allowing it is that you could accidentally or otherwise supply different information in the pdf and ixbrl.

HMRC have not helped by not specifying that the rejection was due to comps in pdf rather than accounts.

PDFs should only be used for other information other than comps or accounts. Does not leave much does it ?

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By Jayaprakash.M
06th Jun 2013 13:36

Filing with PDF

As mentioned, it is very likely that your PDF will be get rejected.

It is probably best to check with HMRC and then attempt to file in iXBRL again with HMRC.

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