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Congratulations if you have submitted MTD4VAT OK

... me... I've had to resort to the old tried and tested system...

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I did everything right even to the point of getting my clients to send their stuff in early (rather than the usual last minute) just in case and guess what... doesnt work. Software provider says its a 'known problem' (whatever the problem is) and to ring HMRC VAT. 

I'm not bothering - havent been able to get through for weeks now.

So I've submitted the usual way. Clients will prob receive a letter so I've warned them.

Replies (51)

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By johnhemming
07th Aug 2019 16:06

If you were able to submit the usual way the "known problem" is probably that the specific client had not signed up to MTD. If you would, however like me to look at the issue in more detail then email me ([email protected])

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By legerman
07th Aug 2019 22:12

What software are you using? I am using bridging software (VAT Direct) and both mine have gone through successfully.

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By SXGuy
08th Aug 2019 07:02

You haven't signed your clients up to mtd otherwise you wouldn't be able to file the old way.

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Replying to SXGuy:
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By legerman
08th Aug 2019 10:33

SXGuy wrote:

You haven't signed your clients up to mtd otherwise you wouldn't be able to file the old way.

I thought that, but I've just filed 2 vat returns under MTD and both clients are still showing on my old VAT gateway. I can see the previously submitted returns but not the MTD ones.

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Replying to legerman:
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By SXGuy
08th Aug 2019 11:08

I think that's how it should be, you will see submissions prior to MTD and not MTD submissions.
Your MTD software should also, only shown Submitted and outstanding MTD returns, but not show non MTD submissions.

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Replying to SXGuy:
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By legerman
08th Aug 2019 11:11

SXGuy wrote:

Your MTD software should also, only shown Submitted and outstanding MTD returns, but not show non MTD submissions.

Yes, that's right. My apologies, I assumed the clients disappeared from the old gateway once signed up to MTD.

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By nodrogbir
08th Aug 2019 11:16

I had a problem today - had an email saying my DD was being taken soon - checked my BTA and is says my VAT payment is Overdue then another message saying that the DD was going to be taken in a few days. Surely the VAT account should say "Thanks for filing you VAT return we will collect your Direct Debit on 12th August. "Happy Days.

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Replying to nodrogbir:
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By johnhemming
08th Aug 2019 11:17

If you have filed via MTD it should indicate whether the DD is being taken or not as part of the filling electronic receipt.

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Replying to johnhemming:
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By Homeworker
08th Aug 2019 12:07

Didn't get a receipt as such from my software. Just a note on screen saying the return had been accepted. We have no idea if the direct debit has been transferred over as there seems to be no way of checking and the client has not received an email, though I understand that she should which is why they asked for an email address.
I know the return has gone through but why can't they send a receipt now?!

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Replying to johnhemming:
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By nodrogbir
08th Aug 2019 12:39

yet again I feel rather lost. When you say the electronic receipt what is this ? When I filed with Sage nothing came from anyone , I went into my BTA and that stated that the return was filed , at which point I was happy however today I received an email saying that my payment was being taken by DD soon and that I should check my BTA , the first page on the BTA shows the VAT as Overdue , then I went into a message which totally contradicted the fact the VAT was overdue. HMRC have more resources than most so why build a system that creates confusion and contradiction.

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Replying to nodrogbir:
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By johnhemming
08th Aug 2019 13:52

Some of these things depend upon the MTD software that you are using. HMRC send the MTD interface an electronic receipt that inter alia indicates whether a BACS payment or a DD should occur. Your MTD software should either provide that to you or an analysis of it because it is useful information (even if at the moment I don't suggest people rely on it 100%).

If it doesn't then that is an issue for your MTD supplier (ie Sage). Alternatively they may store it somewhere, but not tell you where to find it.

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Replying to johnhemming:
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By NewACA
09th Aug 2019 12:55

Whether someone is on a d/d or not is not currently part of the HMRC API, so the software cannot provide anything other than generic payment information.

HMRC have said to me this is something they are thinking of adding, but not right now as they have bigger problems to solve with MTDfV.

I understand it use to be available under the old ixbrl VAT filings used by software.

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Jennifer Adams
By Jennifer Adams
08th Aug 2019 12:11

Apparently its something to do with 'a missing obligation' ... no... I've no idea either.
I also could not submit a couple of clients via the softwareI've used previously so had to resort to submitting via HMRC's site.
As I said originally - software provider has advised me to ring HMRC ... I dont think I can face the ages hanging on the phone so I'll do that next week when things should have calmed down.

And before anyone asks ... yes... according to HMRC all my clients have been transferred successfully.

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Replying to Jennifer Adams:
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By CMP Accountant
08th Aug 2019 14:56

You say they have been 'transferred'. Do you mean that you have linked your new Agent Services Account to your old GovGateway account to copy across the client list, or that you have actually registered each of your clients for MTD individually?

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Replying to CMP Accountant:
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By Matrix
09th Aug 2019 13:02

Of course they haven’t been registered for MTD. Otherwise she wouldn’t have been able to file under the old system.

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Replying to Matrix:
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By Nick.Ferriter
09th Aug 2019 10:20

Matrix wrote:

Of course they haven’t been transferred. Otherwise she wouldn’t have been able to file under the old system.

This!

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Jennifer Adams
By Jennifer Adams
08th Aug 2019 13:53

Ok... so I've received this from the software provider...

"the VAT returns are obtained from HMRC. We do not generate these and we cannot define what they are. We obtain them by requesting them from HMRCs servers via the authorisation you provide to us with your ASA. Once HMRC send a period over we generate the list and display these to you as VAT returns to file.

In this instance, HMRC are not sending any dates over and so we have nothing to populate the list with. This is a common issue that HMRC are aware of and know how to fix on their end and so this is why I have advised speaking to HMRC.

You will also find a link below that is for the bug in HMRCs development tracker.

https://github.com/hmrc/vat-api/issues/599

>>> I think I've an idea what is meant.

Why me though?!

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Replying to Jennifer Adams:
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By SXGuy
08th Aug 2019 15:08

Please confirm, that as well as transferring your old HMRC agent account over to the new ASA, that you have also signed up each and every client, separately to MTD?

I think theres some confusion going on.

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Replying to Jennifer Adams:
RedFive
By RedFive
08th Aug 2019 15:30

There is loads on Aweb about this. It is not just you, but it could have been sorted ages ago.

I had it on three clients but all were sorted by HMRC well before filing deadline. All my stagger 1 MTD clients were filed before the 20th July. I've already filed half a dozen stagger 2 (July QE) clients, though 1 of them is now blocked as the next quarter obligation has not populated.

As I predicted in one of the threads below there will be many of these. ONLY HMRC can sort this for you. It is a known issue by them now.

https://www.accountingweb.co.uk/any-answers/mtd-missed-vat-period

https://www.accountingweb.co.uk/any-answers/mtd-vat-period-showing-block...

https://www.accountingweb.co.uk/any-answers/mtd-client-sign-up

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Replying to RedFive:
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By johnhemming
08th Aug 2019 17:20

As well as these type of cases which there are quite a lot, I have seen in the last couple of weeks two other unrelated situations where some MTD software asks the wrong question of HMRC and hence gets the wrong answer.

My guess is that these are normal missing obligations, but they might be something else.

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By Glenn Martin
08th Aug 2019 16:16

I left all mine to the very last minute for the HMRC side of things.

All were on Xero for some time previous

Setting up the ASA and transferring all clients over went without a hitch which seemed to easy to me and was waiting for something to go wrong but actually surprised how issue free it has all been

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By tracyhoward
09th Aug 2019 10:29

I filed 14 MTD returns on the 7th, presumably successfully but only time will tell. Would be nice if HMRC could generate an email to confirm receipt like they do with every other online submission.

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By Nick.Ferriter
09th Aug 2019 10:45

Before you even go to the software providers or HMRC you need to check that have you have followed the simple instructions from HMRC.

Firstly have you set up your new agent services account?

Secondly have you followed HMRC's instructions to move your client information from your old gateway to the new agent services account.

Then have you signed up every single client for MTD?

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/making-tax-digital-for-vat-as-an-agent-step-...

Looks like there is a failure to follow the instructions given to make this work.

The "known problem" is "An error between the chair and keyboard."

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Replying to Nick.Ferriter:
Tornado
By Tornado
10th Aug 2019 16:43

We have had no particular problems in signing up clients to MTD for VAT when we have always been authorised to act for them, but trying to sign up clients that have done it themselves for years but no longer want to do so, is a bit of a merry-go-round.

Trying to authorise a client through the ASA comes to a grinding half way through when a message says that this cannot be done as the client is not signed up for MTD for VAT. Try to sign up the client for MTD for VAT through the UK.gov page as an Agent and this cannot be done either as I am not authorised!

Fortunately there are only a few clients who have given up doing it themselves, so it is a relatively minor problem. The only solution to this seems to be to get them to register for MTD for VAT themselves and then for me to apply for authorisation.

All of this just get nine figures submitted to HMRC 'digitally' instead of submitting them 'digitally' as before by a different method through a different portal.

Still, you don't get much for your 1200 million pounds (+) budget these days.

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Replying to Tornado:
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By johnhemming
09th Aug 2019 17:25

The invitation process using the Agents API implies that a client can create a government gateway account whilst accepting an invitation. That, of course, would give a faster route towards appointment of an agent.

However, I have not been able to try that yet and it may come against the same block.

I have managed to get the Agents API appointment process to work. That has been where the account is already in MTD, however.

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Replying to johnhemming:
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By SXGuy
09th Aug 2019 18:34

But are you trying to get authorisation via your asa account or the old account? My understanding is first send a request for authorisation via the old account then when that's done and details are visable, then sign them up to mtd.

I'm in the process of doing it this way now so I'll see what happens.

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Replying to SXGuy:
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By johnhemming
09th Aug 2019 19:12

There are a number of ways of doing things. I tend to concentrate on those that will apply for the future. In the future there will be the ASA account and people will use various systems for getting authority via the ASA.

The two main ones are the GUI and the Agents API both of which are live at the moment. There may be no difference between the way they work.

I have only got the Agents API to work.

However, the way you are getting authority should still work. I don't know when that will be retired (and of course it might not be).

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Replying to johnhemming:
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By SXGuy
09th Aug 2019 19:32

I think my reasoning is that I'll stick to the tried and tested method while people have issues with the new way until those issues are ironed out. At which point I guess the old method will probably cease.

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Replying to SXGuy:
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By johnhemming
09th Aug 2019 20:02

I would suggest a nuanced approach which is to generally stick with what works, but to do a small amount of experimentation to see what might work better. This is particularly important if things are changing and the current system will not be able to persist.

That approach enables working out how the long term approaches work whilst not spending too much time on the new stuff.

That strategy may seem superficially to involve more work than just using one system at a time, but in fact it makes the process of change easier and almost certainly more efficient.

For example when implementing a new system it is worth putting the effort into some form of phased implementation even if it is for part of a business where a business gradually moves across to the new system.

When it comes to MTD I would always suggest people have some guinea pig accounts (one or two, the ones that are internal ones) and join the pilot schemes as early as possible.

That way all the internal learning happens before people are forced to change and people do not spend hours thrashing around trying to work out how to cope with a sudden change. Instead they learn the changes in a relaxed way where it doesn't matter if they simply use the older systems and when they need to use the new systems for everything only the exceptions are a problem not the mainstream.

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Replying to Tornado:
Morph
By kevinringer
12th Aug 2019 09:11

Re clients who have been doing their own VAT returns but want us to sign them up: I've been putting them on our old GG account because it is dynamically linked to the ASA which means the clients appear on the ASA. I have a set of instructions/screen shots which I email to clients so that they appoint us as agents. Any clients that are incapable (about half of them) I get them to phone me, tell me their user ID and password, I log in, they get the 2SV code whilst I'm on the phone, they tell me the code, I get into their BTA and appoint us as agents. They appear in our old GG account immediately as an unallocated client. I have to allocate them in our old GG account then wait 24 hours. Then I can sign them up for ASA and submit VAT returns on their behalf. Lots and lots of hoops to jump through but it works.

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Replying to kevinringer:
Tornado
By Tornado
12th Aug 2019 09:32

Great Stuff Kevin. Anything that actually works is well worth knowing.

MTD for VAT is quite easy really (he says with a hint of sarcasm).

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Replying to Tornado:
Morph
By kevinringer
12th Aug 2019 10:09

I objected to MTD because the digitisation would be a real struggle for the 39% of my clients that have no computer experience and keep paper records. I kind of expected the MTD systems themselves would work because I think back to the huge upheaval of SA when that started in 1997: massive change but by and large HMRC's systems worked. But I should have paid more attention to recent experience: HMRC systems that worked in 1997 no longer work today. Technology moves forward but HMRC moves backwards. So I should have expected many HMRC MTD system problems. And there have been and no doubt will continue to be. It'll be like RTI: we're 4 years down the line and HMRC still can't cope so clients aren't being fined for late returns. I expect it will be the same for MTD.

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By Janski
09th Aug 2019 10:53

My submissions appear to have gone OK. I'm using Andica bridging software. When I set up the client on Andica, I confirm the tax year to download then it retrieves from HMRC any VAT returns available for submission. When submitted, the software provides a successful submission receipt and on that it indicates whether a D/D is set up.

Oddly, after my first submission, HMRC emailed me confirmation that the client's VAT return had been submitted and £x would be taken by d/d on 12/8/19. But never got this for any of the other submissions.

With the software though it has menu options to interrogate HMRC to get VAT liabilities and payments made. By doing this I was able to see that HMRC had clearly received the VAT returns.

Yesterday I received emails from HMRC confirming that d/d's would be taken for each of the clients (stated client name but not amounts or date). Presumably next week I will be able to check via the software to see payments made.

So all appears to be good.

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Replying to Janski:
By Charlie Carne
09th Aug 2019 13:47

Janski wrote:

Oddly, after my first submission, HMRC emailed me confirmation that the client's VAT return had been submitted and £x would be taken by d/d on 12/8/19.

Yesterday I received emails from HMRC confirming that d/d's would be taken for each of the clients (stated client name but not amounts or date). Presumably next week I will be able to check via the software to see payments made.


Are you sure that you received emails from HMRC? My confirmatory emails all come from [email protected] (as I use QBO) and the text of those emails is as follows:


"HMRC accepted your return
Tax due £x,xxx.xx 1 April - 30 June 2019
XYZ Company Ltd (VAT number xxxxxxxxx)
Receipt no xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Submitted on: 05 August 2019 14:06:24
......."


The whole point of MTD is that you use third party software to submit and it is THAT software that confirms receipt (whether by email or in the software's own portal). You should not hear from HMRC at all!
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Replying to charliecarne:
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By johnhemming
09th Aug 2019 14:05

You are right that the MTD software can do the confirmation (and should provide the electronic receipt that gives that information).

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Replying to charliecarne:
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By Janski
09th Aug 2019 16:51

Definitely from HMRC.

VAT Return Direct Debit: reminder of payment collection
Dear ...

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By sdyer.craggsco.co.uk
09th Aug 2019 11:56

(Blank)

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By mickeyparish
09th Aug 2019 12:25

Just done our own VAT return , and it went ok, just something went wrong on the first attempt, but on the second attempt it went straight through. The confirmatory message ( annoyingly you have to log in to see it ) even has the correct amount of VAT to be deducted next week !

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Morph
By kevinringer
09th Aug 2019 13:07

So far MTD has taken an extra 200 hours of time for me and my staff. Almost half of that time was discussing with clients on how to handle it, identifying about 25% that were in with a chance of exemption and submitting and obtaining exemption, with the others deciding what they were going to do and how we'd support them (ranging from them doing everything and we just recommend bridging software to those that will do the spreadsheet and we will file to those where we're doing everything). I'd started the ball rolling in February so all registration long since done. Our main problem was the 2SV codes all coming through on one phone: there was no way to identify which client each code was for. On the 7th there were times when we'd receive 4 in a single a minute. I'm hoping we won't have to do these again for 18 months but our Sage clients are doing them for every VAT period.

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Replying to kevinringer:
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By johnhemming
09th Aug 2019 14:07

This is either something to do with Sage or something to do with the way you have Sage configured. I am going on holiday for a week, but if you would like me to look at this in more detail when I return just email me (in a weeks time not until then - [email protected]).

I can understand that this is frustrating, but it is not how the system normally works.

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Jennifer Adams
By Jennifer Adams
09th Aug 2019 17:39

Update... to all those who said I'd not signed up correctly. ... actually I did and yes... I went through the signing up process with each client. But before I braced myself for a VAT call I thought I'd see whether there was a way to check.
So I went on the 'signed up' bit of the site again and loaded UTR and Co Reg nos and got..."We could not confirm your client's company. The company number you entered is not on our system"
The company has been going for years and I've submitted VAT returns for years as well.

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Replying to Jennifer Adams:
RedFive
By RedFive
09th Aug 2019 17:47

I didn’t say you hadn’t signed them up correctly.

Suggest you read my contribution and links.

If you have signed them up already then you’ll get that error.

It’s the obligations. If you read my links you will see my tip about opening a BTA for them and checking obligations that way. 10 minute job max.

Or use EasyMTD software to view client obligations. 5 minute job max. And free.

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Replying to RedFive:
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By johnhemming
09th Aug 2019 18:02

RedFive is probably right.

However, there can be other problems with the obligations.

Things that you can do are:
a) Check that you have authority over the account by running any query and seeing if you get a 403 error or a 404 error. If you ask a generalised query about obligations you might find some fulfilled ones. That would go a long way towards proving that RedFive is right. A 404 error means RedFive is probably right. (However, see c and d below)

b) Use the Agents API (using the relationships api call) to confirm that your client is on your authority list. A 204 "no content" response will tell you if that is the case. Other responses will give you reasons as to why it is not working.

c) Query the obligations without dates, but using a status of "O" (for outstanding) that might produce something.

d) Query the obligations with a start date of 1st May 2019 and an end date that is not in the future. HMRC have said that this sometimes produces the goodies (for this you have to query the obligations in a number of different ways).

e) It would really help to know if this account has a numeric period key or not. A numeric period key would indicate that it is HMRC's problem area.

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By Cathy Milligan
09th Aug 2019 20:25

I had a late minute "I can't file my VAT return" on 7th for a client for whom I am not the VAT agent. He logged into his BTA, authorised me as an agent and 10 mins later I had submitted his return via VitalTax. Easy.

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By Cathy Milligan
09th Aug 2019 20:27

When in your ASA go to "manage user access" and there you will find a list of MTD ready clients

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By Kaylee100
09th Aug 2019 20:35

Weve filed quite a few now

Monthlies using Bridging and Sage
Quarterlies using Sage, Xero and Bridging
A couple of quarterlies on old system, although actually they are now digitalised we couldn't get authorisation in time so did filing old way
One digitalised but made a mess, its sorted now, so I will file on Monday.

The monthly repayments have come through OK. Only time will tell if the quarterly DDs go out OK.

It was hardly perfect. Ive not filed late for years, so that was a fail. Our costs have risen significantly, another fail of the system, sadly. Some software reports are poorly tested. One or two will be better off with improved management information though - including the one that made a mess, if she learns from this experience.

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By Kaylee100
09th Aug 2019 20:37

Deleted post as it was duplicated.

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By Kaylee100
12th Aug 2019 10:30

Agree. Most clients have asked us to take it on or use an independent bookkeeper now. The one that was insistent on doing it made a mess, sorted it last week and today I have discovered she sorted it by making another mess.

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Replying to Kaylee100:
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By nodrogbir
12th Aug 2019 12:16

If clients are forced to take on a book-keeper or ask you or indeed make a mess then I would suggest they should be exempt. MTD was not introduced by HMRC for the purpose of increasing the costs to business or the risk of error to HMRC.

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Replying to nodrogbir:
Morph
By kevinringer
12th Aug 2019 13:32

I've successfully obtained MTD exemption on these grounds. Read the exemption legislation then put together a case that uses wording similar to the legislation: why 'it is not reasonably practicable' to comply. I've not had a single exemption application refused.

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