Share this content

Continuing to submit SA when told to 'stop'

HMRC in their wisdom have taken me out of SA

Didn't find your answer?

Whilst only 'employed', some years the HICBC charge applies, and I do have professional expenses and bank interest.

HMRC have told me I no longer need to do SA, but I think I will need to in 2022.

Presumably I can keep on filing anyway?

Replies (21)

Please login or register to join the discussion.

avatar
By SXGuy
19th May 2021 09:23

Yes you can.

Thanks (0)
avatar
By Paul Crowley
19th May 2021 09:23

I have just submitted the return as usual if needed.
HMRC used to write a letter saying something along the lines of asking whether return to be treated as an issued return, but have not seen one in quite a while.

Thanks (0)
avatar
By Tax Dragon
19th May 2021 09:26

TMA s12D applies.

Thanks (0)
Replying to Tax Dragon:
avatar
By Wanderer
19th May 2021 10:45

And whether the return is processed or not probably relies on whether HMRC condescend to accept it under 12D(1)(c).

Thanks (0)
Universe
By SteveOH
19th May 2021 09:30

I echo the previous replies. I have had instances where I have received a copy letter from HMRC saying, erroneously, that Returns are no longer required. I've filed the Return anyway, the client has been charged the tax, the client has paid the tax and all is right with the world again.

Thanks (1)
avatar
By Ianhodges
19th May 2021 10:21

yes just file a return as normal , it will be processed , I have done it

Thanks (0)
avatar
By Wanderer
19th May 2021 10:37

Mmmm

Think there has been a change of policy in the last year and HMRC might no longer capture unsolicited returns.

They certainly used to but I think I've read about the policy change.

I've certainly got one filed in January not yet captured. And in this thead the OP states that HMRC no longer process them:-
https://www.accountingweb.co.uk/any-answers/hmrc-refusing-self-assessmen...

Thanks (2)
Replying to Wanderer:
avatar
By Hugo Fair
19th May 2021 11:36

In the currently fluid world of HMRC policies, I suspect you're not going to get an absolute answer (to whether it's better to just ignore the 'no need to file' letter vs. ask to be put back on SA - assuming you want to file).

I was 'taken off' back in late 2019 (when they started their mission to reduce their workload - sorry reduce the administrative burden on taxpayers) ... and managed to get through quickly on the phone. I was only part way through my litany of why this was a stupid decision, when the operator said "If you want to continue submitting just say so and I'll put you back on the list"!

It's been fine ever since (until no doubt the system has another go at removing me) ... but I don't know whether they're currently so stupid as to "fail to capture" unsolicited submissions.

Thanks (1)
Replying to Hugo Fair:
RLI
By lionofludesch
20th May 2021 06:39

Hugo Fair wrote:

It's been fine ever since (until no doubt the system has another go at removing me) ... but I don't know whether they're currently so stupid as to "fail to capture" unsolicited submissions.

I don't either but it is credible.

Thanks (0)
Replying to Hugo Fair:
old_man_belfield.jpg
By The Pedantic Accountant
22nd May 2021 14:38

Hi Hugo.

I’m somewhat baffled by these “taxpayers” to whom you refer? Perhaps you are actually referring to HMRC “customers”?

Strangely, I also received, in February, a Self Assessment Tax Return stop notice, despite the fact my PAYE income is in excess of stg£100,000 (a fact confirmed by RTI submissions @ the time of issue of the stop notice). It seems tax is actually somewhat taxing after all! Or HMRC’s right hand doesn’t know what its far right hand is doing? In any case, I guess I’ll be, erroneously, duly issued with a P800, once the P11d deadline has passed, demanding the tax underpaid (thanks to an erroneous Tax Code, despite attempts to have the full Personal Allowance included removed) then, rather than the usual 31 January deadline? Wonderful!

Enjoy your weekend.

Hildy

Thanks (0)
Replying to The Pedantic Accountant:
avatar
By Hugo Fair
22nd May 2021 15:01

Your suppositions about the future actions of HMRC are predicated on a single core assumption ... that the data they hold on you (across multiple systems) is actually the same as the data you know to be true. A reasonable starting point you might think, but unfortunately not one guaranteed to be true.

Just to show that it's not just HMRC that I mistrust when it comes to data storage and handling, I recently discovered that I exist on NHS central records as two distinct people (same name & contact details, different ref no and with past symptoms split between the records)! When I asked for this to be remedied, I was told there was no 'merge' facility (because that was a concept that should never have been necessary) - and they couldn't just 'kill' one of the records for fear of how that might be interpreted by other govt systems!

So good luck with your future interactions with HMRC (and convincing them to accept or repay the correct amount of tax as appropriate) ... but in the meantime I'll revert to gardening in between showers (a bit like managing HMRC data).

Thanks (2)
Replying to Hugo Fair:
old_man_belfield.jpg
By The Pedantic Accountant
28th May 2021 14:59

Hi Hugo.

Your comments, unlike HMRC, make perfect sense.

Many thanks for your wishes regarding my imminent interactions with the tax authority.

Enjoy your bank holiday.

Hildy

Thanks (0)
Replying to The Pedantic Accountant:
avatar
By Moo
24th May 2021 15:56

I was told a couple of years ago by an HMRC operative that the £100k threshold had been increased to £150k but I've not seen anything to confirm that. You are being far too presumptuous in thinking they will wait until after P11d deadline to issue a P800. P800s and tax repayments frequently issued prior to P11d deadline just to keep us on our toes.

Thanks (1)
Replying to Moo:
old_man_belfield.jpg
By The Pedantic Accountant
28th May 2021 15:14

Hi Moo.

I had a similar thinking regarding the movement of the threshold but, on checking before my original post, the stg£100k limit still seems to be the level per the current HMRC online checklist. I would guess one could spend the day talking with multiple HMRC operatives (probably only getting to speak with a couple, given their poor service levels (in place long before the COVID)) and be duly given differing guidance regarding same.

Whilst I appreciate your experience of the early issue of P800s, I've only ever seen very late action of same. A few former colleagues for the 2017-2018 tax year received claims for ~ stg£5,000 underpayments (despite the proclamations prior to the implementation of RTI that such issues would cease) dated early February 2020!

Enjoy your bank holiday.

Hildy

Thanks (0)
avatar
By Geoff56
19th May 2021 17:26

In the past, on occasions, I have just filed a return without contacting HMRC and everything has worked fine. However, last year, HMRC told me that they should be notified in advance, because if they have not "re-activated" the taxpayer's SA account, the return may be accepted but not processed. They said wait until the client's account shows that a tax return is required/expected, which can take 3 or 4 days.

I don't know how necessary this really is, but unless one is up against an imminent deadline, I would play safe and tell HMRC first.

Thanks (2)
Replying to Geoff56:
avatar
By Cathy Milligan
21st May 2021 10:00

If only we had a dedicated Agent number we could call to notify them?

Thanks (2)
avatar
By adam.arca
20th May 2021 10:39

This year, on one client and rather bizarrely, we've had the opposite happen.

Client is a pensioner (albeit into HRT) and was taken out of SA a good few years ago; and, for a change, I could actually see the sense of that as coding had been getting it spot on for 2 or 3 years prior to that. Client, however, decided that he wanted to carry on submitting a return "just in case" and that's what we have done, not bothering to inform HMRC and the return always being accepted.

This year, though, he was issued with a notice to file even though he swears blind that nothing has changed and there was certainly nothing different with last year's return. Go figure.

Thanks (0)
Replying to adam.arca:
avatar
By Hugo Fair
20th May 2021 14:14

I'm guessing, but using HMRC logic from other areas of their dominion ...
* They've decided to 'not capture' what they perceive as unsolicited returns
* Taxpayers are advised to request being put back on the list if they insist on submitting
* HMRC have shown an ounce of common sense in this case by putting your client back on the list without such a request (as he's submitting anyway and they want to save the effort of manually 'capturing' those returns)
* But their systems (without a vestige of common sense) simply see that client is on list, so issue 'notice to file'

Basically HMRC are using poorly-designed systems (on list = get notice / not on list = ignore submission) to automate processes - in order to improve efficiency; but have so far not cottoned onto the consequence of poor automation having a deleterious impact on efficiency (that in itself has a knock-on impact on the poor taxpayer)!

Thanks (1)
avatar
By [email protected]
21st May 2021 10:56

One wonders how, when nearly all of us file online, how not accepting a return filed online reduces their workload?
Historically where the taxpayer has a UTR it seemed to go through, the receipt of the return being treated as a notice that a return was needed.
We did have a case where the client had an old UTR but he couldn't find it, hadn't needed to file for years. We rang the Revenue and they couldn't trace the record, saying it must be too old so to apply for a new one. Applied for one only to be told he couldn't have one because he already had one...
An afternoon in the loft and the client found something with it on: return went through without a ripple.

Thanks (0)
avatar
By David Gordon FCCA
21st May 2021 11:24

If you think a Return is required, file a Return.

Simple.

Thanks (1)
avatar
By Tomazaan
21st May 2021 15:23

If acting as agent, you need to get HMRC to issue a return before filing one.

With regard to your own return, it may be possible to get a tax return issued or inform HMRC of your liability via you personal tax account.

Thanks (1)
Share this content