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CT600 and Directors Loan account

Need to enter on the CT600 partial repayment of money loaned to my company

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Hi  I have been using the Companies House accounts facility for several years now but when it comes to Corporation Tax I get stuck. It sems that each year they alter the CT600.  What I am doing is suporting my company financially and where a profit has been made using that money to reduce what the company owes me. Since my company is now making a profit, a very small profit, the Directors Loan is being reduced. I have never paid corporation tax because the company still owes me money. The part of the CT600 that has brought me to a standstill is Trading Losses CP281, CP281a, CP283a, CP288a, CP281b, CP283b, CP997, CP288b.   I have to submit the CT600 tomorrow. The old CT600 has a section CP281, 282 ,283, 284.That works.

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30th Dec 2018 16:18

ggeoff wrote:

It sems that each year they alter the CT600.

They have to. Out of date tax forms would not cope with up to date tax rules.

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30th Dec 2018 16:45

“I have never paid corporation tax because the company still owes me money.”

Alas, one doesn’t necessarily mean the other. Are you including the payments to yourself (DLA) as an expense of the company, ie a deduction on the P&L? If so, you’re doing it wrong.

“I have to submit the CT600 tomorrow”

Why have you left it so late if you struggle with it every year?

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By ggeoff
to atleastisoundknowledgable...
30th Dec 2018 16:57

I partly completed the CT600 early last week. I have a copy of my responses on a CT600 for 2012 and thought that I could use that as a reference and also my account to Companies House. HMRC didn't post that they are running a beta CT600 form. If so i would have responded earlier.

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to ggeoff
30th Dec 2018 17:16

ggeoff wrote:

I partly completed the CT600 early last week.

Last week ? So you waited for 51 of the 52 weeks and decided to do it over Christmas ? I'm not sure that puts you in a better light.

Losses have nothing to do with what's owed to you. At least, not so far as completing the return goes. You don't have to report money owed to you on the return at all.

What do you intend to do with these losses ? Carry them forward ?

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By ggeoff
to lionofludesch
30th Dec 2018 17:32

Well it does seem as if its a mad mad world. What I intend to do with the losses is reduce them by taking account of profits. So I have made a profit through dint of my work. No one else, I do not have employees. Accountants may agree that I have made a profit but that profit is worthless unless I can reduce the money that the company owes me.

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to ggeoff
30th Dec 2018 17:38

ggeoff wrote:
So I have made a profit through dint of my work. No one else, I do not have employees

You can use your losses. What you can't use is your loans.

That is the fundamental point made several times on the thread.

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By ggeoff
to lionofludesch
30th Dec 2018 18:00

No it is not. Lets clarify, I have not made any loans to my company. What I have done is make sure that all bills are paid. I expect to receive if possible funds to repay what I have paid to keep my company afloat. As I have mentioned several times how do I get partial repayment of the money I have provided reduce my payments to keep my company solvent.+

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to ggeoff
30th Dec 2018 18:05

ggeoff wrote:

No it is not. Lets clarify, I have not made any loans to my company. What I have done is make sure that all bills are paid. I expect to receive if possible funds to repay what I have paid to keep my company afloat. As I have mentioned several times how do I get partial repayment of the money I have provided reduce my payments to keep my company solvent.+

Let me clarify.

If you've settled the company's bills, you've made loans to the company. It's not necessary to pay your cash in to the company's bank account to make a loan.

If you want the money back and the company has it, take it. If the company doesn't have the money, you'll have to wait. Is that your real question ? Nothing to do with the CT600 ?

I'm beginning to wonder how accurate your suggestion is that this company has made losses in the past and is starting to make a profit. Your grasp of the principles is tenuous, to say the least.

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By ggeoff
to lionofludesch
30th Dec 2018 18:15

No I have to complete the CT600!

My accounts have been accepted by Companies House in the past that includes 2017. Do you doubt Companies House?

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to ggeoff
30th Dec 2018 18:19

“My accounts have been accepted by Companies House in the past that includes 2017. Do you doubt Companies House?”

All they do it make sure 1+1=2, not whether you have the right numbers. Your accountant does that. Oh, wait.

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to ggeoff
30th Dec 2018 18:23

ggeoff wrote:

No I have to complete the CT600!

My accounts have been accepted by Companies House in the past that includes 2017. Do you doubt Companies House?

Companies House will accept any old carp if it's submitted online.

Doesn't mean it's right or, if they had a good look at it, they'd give it a stamp of approval.

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By ggeoff
to lionofludesch
30th Dec 2018 18:54

So HMRC will not? Why not provide me with details and then I can report to www.lettertothepm.co.uk

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to ggeoff
30th Dec 2018 22:24

ggeoff wrote:

So HMRC will not? Why not provide me with details and then I can report to www.lettertothepm.co.uk

Details of what ?

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to ggeoff
30th Dec 2018 18:08

Is the “profit of less than £1,000” before or after counting for the bills paid by you personally? ie have you included as a cost to the company these (lets call them) unpaid expense claims when incurred by you, or are you including them as & when you are reimbursed by the company?

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to atleastisoundknowledgable...
30th Dec 2018 18:13

atleastisoundknowledgable... wrote:

Is the “profit of less than £1,000” before or after counting for the bills paid by you personally? ie have you included as a cost to the company these (lets call them) unpaid expense claims when incurred by you, or are you including them as & when you are reimbursed by the company?

Ah - good question.

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By ggeoff
to atleastisoundknowledgable...
30th Dec 2018 20:06

Sorry you have lost me. I have only one company that charges me (my company) for services. I only present those charges in my return. I do not make any other claims, although I could do. So I pay for IT services only no other charges (no property, cars, employees etc.) I am an internet services provider. All I need to charge for, at least at this time, is hosting, domain renewal and adding content/ maintenance. In short I pay all the bills that the company has to pay to provide the services to its clients.

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to ggeoff
30th Dec 2018 18:48

ggeoff wrote:

Sorry you have lost me. I have only one company that charges me (my company) for services. I only present those charges in my return. I do not make any other claims, although I could do. So I pay for IT services only no other charges (no property, cars, employees etc.) I am an internet services provider. All I need to charge for, at least at this time, is hosting, domain renewal and adding content/ maintenance

ce

OK - well here's the bottom line.

If you don't charge for these "other claims" in the company's accounts, you won't get any tax relief because claiming is the only way you'll get relief.

You seem to have submitted false accounts to Companies House as they do not include all the costs or liabilities. Whilst not suggesting that you'll get a three-stretch, I would recommend that you do ensure that all creditors are paid, as disgruntled creditors are most likely to make a fuss.

I would also suggest that you wind-up your company and have it struck from the register.

Recommence trading as a self-employed sole trader. Your affairs will be much more simple and, in truth, if you're only making profits of less than £1000, a limited company isn't justified.

The reality is that if your company can't afford an accountant (whether it uses one or not), your company is too small to trade as a company.

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By ggeoff
to lionofludesch
30th Dec 2018 19:12

That may be correct But HMRC do not suggest that is so.
My company still owes me £3000+ So at least whilst that pertains I'll solder on. However, perhaps you know how to offset my profits against my creditants

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By ggeoff
to atleastisoundknowledgable...
30th Dec 2018 18:40

Profit as posted after costs etc.

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By ggeoff
to atleastisoundknowledgable...
30th Dec 2018 20:01

Profit is after deducting costs. I want to have my loan to my company reduced by the profits made this year 2017.

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to ggeoff
31st Dec 2018 11:53

ggeoff wrote:

Lets clarify, I have not made any loans to my company.

So what is the item in your accounts described as "Director G A Edwards Loan Account"?

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to ggeoff
30th Dec 2018 17:28

“I partly completed the CT600 early last week”

My point was that you could have done this anytime from April. Why leave it to December?

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to atleastisoundknowledgable...
30th Dec 2018 17:30

atleastisoundknowledgable... wrote:

My point was that you could have done this anytime from April.

I was thinking January.

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to lionofludesch
30th Dec 2018 17:51

lionofludesch wrote:

atleastisoundknowledgable... wrote:

My point was that you could have done this anytime from April.

I was thinking January.

D’oh

EDIT
It’s true that it could have been done anytime from April, but also pre-April (from Jan). I retract my “d’oh” acknowledgment of error.

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to atleastisoundknowledgable...
30th Dec 2018 18:15

atleastisoundknowledgable... wrote:

It’s true that it could have been done anytime from April, but also pre-April (from Jan). I retract my “d’oh” acknowledgment of error.

Still, it'd be nice to know what accounting period we're dealing with, eh ?

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By ggeoff
to atleastisoundknowledgable...
30th Dec 2018 20:27

I submitted my accounts to Companies House after April. September I recall.

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By ggeoff
to lionofludesch
30th Dec 2018 20:19

You are not attempting to answer my call for help. I did not expect to a problem generated by a Beta CT600.

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By ggeoff
to atleastisoundknowledgable...
30th Dec 2018 17:43

I suppose that since my company although making a profit has only reduced what it owes me. As it has been my money that has kept it afloat. And is not liable for Corporation tax - as declared and sent to HMRC. earlier in the year.

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to ggeoff
30th Dec 2018 17:49

ggeoff wrote:

I suppose that since my company although making a profit has only reduced what it owes me. As it has been my money that has kept it afloat. And is not liable for Corporation tax - as declared and sent to HMRC. earlier in the year.

So you've already submitted a return ?

Then what's your problem ?

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By ggeoff
to lionofludesch
30th Dec 2018 19:46

No I reported that I had nothing to pay.

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to ggeoff
30th Dec 2018 17:59

ggeoff wrote:

... although making a profit ... is not liable for Corporation tax

Why not?

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By ggeoff
to atleastisoundknowledgable...
30th Dec 2018 19:50

Because I have kept the company solvent over the years by paying the bills.

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By ggeoff
to atleastisoundknowledgable...
30th Dec 2018 17:48

So why may the company not owe me money? My returns to Companies House over the years accept that my calculations are correct. +

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to ggeoff
30th Dec 2018 17:52

ggeoff wrote:

So why may the company not owe me money? My returns to Companies House over the years accept that my calculations are correct. +

It may. Why do you think it may not ?

Why do you think your returns to Companies House prove your calculations are correct ? They're just numbers you filed. Could be absolute rubbish.

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30th Dec 2018 16:46

Your comment, ‘I have never paid corporation tax because the company still owes me money’ is seriously flawed.

If you are happy to avoid paying for an accountant the trade off is that each year you will be cocking things up. If you are comfortable with that, fine.

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By ggeoff
to andy.partridge
30th Dec 2018 17:11

My maximum profit has been less than £1000. Hardly sufficient to warrant employing an accountant. Total payments to the company since early 2000 £7000 now reduced by profits to just over £3000.

All I would like to know is how to offset my companies profit against what it owes me using the Beta CT600

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to ggeoff
30th Dec 2018 17:19

ggeoff wrote:

My maximum profit has been less than £1000. Hardly sufficient to warrant employing an accountant. Total payments to the company since early 2000 £7000 now reduced by profits to just over £3000.

All I would like to know is how to offset my companies profit against what it owes me using the Beta CT600

You can't. That's not how it works. If you've made a profit this year, you can use any losses the company has made in the past against those profits but what the company owes you has nothing to do with it.

You'll never find what you're seeking as it doesn't exist.

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to ggeoff
30th Dec 2018 22:24

ggeoff wrote:

My maximum profit has been less than £1000. Hardly sufficient to warrant employing an accountant.

The need for an accountant is driven by your need to meet your statutory obligations, not your profitability. As a director (presumably) of a company you have various obligations in terms of record-keeping and filing of statutory returns. You either have the knowledge to do it yourself, or you pay someone to do it for you. Doing it badly or wrong because you don't have the knowledge and don't want to pay someone to assist you is not acceptable.

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By ggeoff
30th Dec 2018 18:17

Just to note that so far no one has actually answered this question.

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to ggeoff
30th Dec 2018 18:21

ggeoff wrote:

Just to note that so far no one has actually answered this question.

25 posts in and we're still trying to establish what the question is.

Mrs Lion's cooking my tea so if you want any help, look sharp.

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to ggeoff
30th Dec 2018 20:26

The question is a non sequitur.

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By Rweaver
30th Dec 2018 18:37

I’m prepared to help. PM me the company’s name so that I can take a look at Companies House and we’ll go from there.

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to Rweaver
31st Dec 2018 12:38

Rweaver wrote:

I’m prepared to help.

I'd withdraw that offer if I were you.

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By Matrix
30th Dec 2018 18:46

Accountants are not able to use the joint filing, we prepare the accounts and tax computation first which you should do too before you enter them.

If you want help then provide the figures.

The loan goes on the Balance sheet, the expenses you paid go on the P&L, you deduct them with your other expenses to get to the profit before tax.

The profit before tax is your starting point for the tax computation/CT600. You then add back any non-allowable expenses and deduct capital allowances. You then have your taxable profit for the year. This may be reduced by losses brought forward.

The loan does not go on the CT600 unless you owe the company money and this a separate calculation from the current year liability.

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By jcace
30th Dec 2018 21:04

Assuming that you are completing your company's CT600 for the year to 31 March 2018 (or 31 December 2017), the value that you should enter in box CP281 is the total amount of the company's trading losses from previous periods. This will also be the same amount that is entered in box 281a. If the company's total losses are greater than it's trading profit in the year to 31 March 2018 (or 31 December 2017), the amount to enter in box 283a will be the amount of trading profit for the year to 31 March 2018 (or 31 December 2017); if the trading profit to 31 March 2018 (or 31 December 2017) is greater than the losses, enter the total losses in 283a.
Box 288a should self-adjust.
If your accounts are for the year to 31 March 2018 or earlier, you should not enter any values (or enter 0) in boxes CP281b, 283b, 997 and 288b.
However, your fundamental issue is understanding the difference between the company's losses and your own personal losses - the CT600 is used to record the company's profit and any losses the company has made.

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By ggeoff
to jcace
31st Dec 2018 12:33

Thanks jcace. I have now been able to complete the submission to HMRC.

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30th Dec 2018 21:49

Just stick random numbers in all the boxes until it lets you submit. It will be no less accurate than the carp you have already submitted.

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30th Dec 2018 22:14

What's your company called? We can give you a bit of feedback on previous year's filings.

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30th Dec 2018 22:26

OP's not interested in anyone who doesn't agree with him.

Another satisfied customer. ©

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By Hfacc
30th Dec 2018 22:50

XYZWEB LIMITED

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