Dividend Paperwork

Timing of it

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I have looked through the search but not found a defining answer.

In the process of completing company accounts for which there are few transactions and very manual bookkeeping.

the handwriting says “try to xxx”

so I have sent the list to the director asking which if any were dividends.

they have confirmed which were dividends (sole director shareholder) declared at the time and that they have got the dividend paperwork which was produced after date. 

Will that be ok for our file evidence for the purposes of corporate criminal offence in that no evasion has been faciliated? The client has signed a letter of rep for this in addition to confirm the above.

any guidance/support is appreciated 

Replies (19)

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By johngroganjga
11th May 2018 08:44

What does the person to whom you are reporting think?

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By Tim Vane
11th May 2018 08:48

If your client has been charged with tax evasion or other criminal offences then he should really be appointing someone a bit more experienced to deal with it, and I would also recommend he appoints a lawyer ASAP.

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RLI
By lionofludesch
11th May 2018 09:24

If this "purposes of corporate criminal offence" is part of your standard procedure, your client seems to be in a better position than many limited companies. Typically, the client expects the accountant to produce the paperwork for him months after payment. I'd also suggest that the date a decision is taken is not necessarily the date that the minutes are typed up. If a Board makes a decision on Friday, the secretary prints the minutes on Monday and the minutes are formally approved at next month's meeting, the date of the decision is still Friday.

On the other hand, if there is some evidence of a corporate criminal offence, that's a different matter and you'd need to look harder at the circumstances in the round.

What's "very manual bookkeeping" ? Is that supposed to indicate wrongdoing in some way ? If there are very few transactions, very manual bookkeeping might be entirely appropriate.

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Replying to lionofludesch:
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By andy.partridge
11th May 2018 09:59

Quote:

Typically, the client expects the accountant to produce the paperwork for him months after payment.

Round here that is not typical.

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Replying to andy.partridge:
By ireallyshouldknowthisbut
11th May 2018 10:37

Round here the accountant doesn't even produce the paperwork, unless someone is actively using it.

In the first time in over 12 years (according to my template) I have prepared some dividend vouchers this month for a one person ltd co. Its was for a UK residency application.

The last time was for a divorce.

Amount of times requested by HMRC............nil

The only ones we do routinely are for multi-shareholder co's for whom we don't file all the shareholder's personal tax returns. Then it makes a lot of sense.

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Replying to ireallyshouldknowthisbut:
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By andy.partridge
11th May 2018 10:42

Outside my house is a 30mph speed limit. No speed camera. Cars routinely drive past at 50mph or faster. It will only be a problem if someone gets hit. I still keep my speed down and advise others to do so.

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Replying to andy.partridge:
Flag of the Soviet Union
By thevaliant
11th May 2018 12:05

I agree with ireallyshouldknowthisbut. Round 'here' we rarely see dividend paperwork, and IF (a very BIG IF) it is drawn up at all it can often be months later (ie, backdated) to suit a purpose.

And I think your analogy is flawed. If someone ignores the speed limit, nothing probably will happen, but if something DOES, then someone(s) will be hurt/die. If someone ignores the rules about minuting dividends and producing vouchers, nothing probably will happen, but if something DOES, then.... ahhh errr... uhhmmm, you might get a mention in Economia pages near the back?

Remember: There is no such thing as an emergency audit.

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Replying to thevaliant:
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By andy.partridge
11th May 2018 15:05

Congratulations. All analogies are flawed if you put your mind to it.

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Replying to thevaliant:
ALISK
By atleastisoundknowledgable...
11th May 2018 17:07

“I agree with ireallyshouldknowthisbut. Round 'here' we rarely see dividend paperwork, and IF (a very BIG IF) it is drawn up at all it can often be months later (ie, backdated) to suit a purpose.”

Valiant/ireallyshould - I’m with you guys. Know I shouldn’t be, but there we are.

You’ve got off lightly for owning up in this thread, when I did a few months ago, Ruddles, PNL, AndyP and many many others slated me.

Hurrah for those of us who don’t see a point in wasting time on a pointless activity unless/until needed.

I stand by you brothers!

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Replying to atleastisoundknowledgable...:
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By andy.partridge
11th May 2018 18:02

What you have still not gathered (sigh) is that a very very very simple procedure would prevent you from risking your integrity.

The fact that you, me and others continue to debate this and that members continue to pose questions means it is not pointless, otherwise there would not be a debate to have.

I have no problem with treating dividends as dividends without paperwork. I do have a problem with treating payments that aren't dividends as dividends or pretending that a dividend was declared when it wasn't. The evidence of paperwork clears up any uncertainty.

Can you not see that?

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Replying to andy.partridge:
By ireallyshouldknowthisbut
11th May 2018 12:49

The difference with speeding is you cant undo speeding if you hit someone, which is why I keep my speed down in 30 zones too, indeed I go through several areas in our village at 20-25 as they are dangerous.

With divi paperwork you can just produce it in the unlikely event it is requested. After all they are all recorded and dated in the signed accounts, all divi paperwork does is put the same data on a different bit of paper for no real purpose I can fathom.

If there is a purposes, eg a 4 shareholder company, then of course we do 'em. For a one person contractor co, its just a waste of time.

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Replying to ireallyshouldknowthisbut:
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By andy.partridge
11th May 2018 15:07

I've got a great idea. Why don't you go to the tiny trouble of getting your clients to do things properly. It will save a lot of futile arguments.

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Replying to andy.partridge:
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By thevaliant
11th May 2018 15:32

Perhaps you are not engaged to do such work?

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Replying to thevaliant:
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By andy.partridge
11th May 2018 15:34

I've no idea what that means.

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Replying to ireallyshouldknowthisbut:
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By Mr_awol
11th May 2018 11:10

Quote:

Round here the accountant doesn't even produce the paperwork, unless someone is actively using it.

In the first time in over 12 years (according to my template) I have prepared some dividend vouchers this month for a one person ltd co. Its was for a UK residency application.

The last time was for a divorce.

Amount of times requested by HMRC............nil

The only ones we do routinely are for multi-shareholder co's for whom we don't file all the shareholder's personal tax returns. Then it makes a lot of sense.

Last time I had a request from HMRC for dividend vouchers was April 2014. It's rare but it does happen. This was for a director earning less than £100k who had submitted their own P11D and not told us, so it never made it to their Tax Return. Rather than just add the BIKs (c£8k) on, HMRC asked for the P11D and also all dividend paperwork.

Client produced it fortunately. Even more fortunately, he'd taken the time to alternate the pen he used to sign them every now and then (maybe I'm being too cynical, but they were in suspiciously pristine condition).

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Teignmouth
By Paul Scholes
11th May 2018 15:16

Client: "Do I need to keep any bills, receipts or paperwork to back up what I spend out?"
Me: "Up to you, the last time I had HMRC asking for anything like that was 10 years ago"
Client: "OK but what's the correct thing to do?"
Me: "Not sure - don't care - put a question on Any Answers"
Client: "What am I paying you for?"

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Teignmouth
By Paul Scholes
11th May 2018 15:24

In similar cases where I got the distinct impression the client was deciding after the event, ie only because I asked &/or for best tax advantage, which were dividends and which were something else, I'd have put them all to DLA/debtors.

In similar cases where the client was lazy in not properly accounting for them, or even going to the bother of doing minutes/vouchers, but I was satisfied that, at the time, they were drawing the money as dividends, I was happy to correct the books and ask them for the paperwork to evidence what actually happened on the day.

These days, it doesn't happen, either the accounting software prepares the paperwork, or the client fills out the templates I gave them.

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Replying to Paul Scholes:
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By andy.partridge
11th May 2018 15:37

Exactly that.

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By Gone Sailing
14th May 2018 15:53

I ask my clients to email me in the form of a Board minute, so that gets the date stamped.

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