Does practical cloud s/w for high transaction volumes exist?

Does practical cloud s/w for high transaction...

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Has anyone out there come across a practical cloud based bookkeeping alternative to the clunky mouse-driven rubbish currently on offer?

If you're doing a few postings from your personal hobby job, the current crop of online bookkeeping software is fine. For high volume posting, the delays incurred from transaction to transaction, using the mouse every time, makes the job ridiculously time-comsuming and ultimately more expensive as a service. You can't even use Return to save and add another in most cases!

With the likes of VT (even Sage)*, you can happily post most entries through use of keyboard only and banging through 100+ invoices in under 3 hours is no problem at all. The mouse is only necessary in a few situations, leaving me to get on with the job at full speed and relatively cheaply.

Yes, I got out of the wriong side of bed this morning, but it is a serious worry when a client suddenly pronounces they want me to use this or that cloud system and I explain their fees will go up - "What! But I'll be paying for the software to make your life easier!" <thinks to self>...you simple prat.

It is quite obvious that the toe-rags that write the software have never asked anyone in the bookkeeping/accounting world about the practicalities of mass postings. Perhaps there are bookkeepers who have never known better, faster systems and accept the dross offered. Who knows, but we as a profession need to get this sorted out by sending e-mails to the various companies and maybe, just maybe, then we will get a product worth advertising (you know, off our own bat rather than e.g. signing into a partnership scheme and being required to do so).

In the meantime, using VT through a dropbox or similar service will need to suffice with all conflict possibilities kept to a minimum.

Fell much better for the rant and would welcome any sensible suggestions for alternatives.

Rgds, Fishy

* other products are available but I w/don't use them

Replies (24)

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By stt
26th Feb 2014 14:22

I thought

many products allow mostly keyboard use e.g. Sage invoice entry?

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By User deleted
26th Feb 2014 14:30

I know what you mean

Freeagent is a night mare, I get a sore finger pad clicking away 6 - 10 times per entry - wouldn't be so bad if you could mark a tick box or ctrl click to batch a group of items together to "create an explanation" for all in one go.

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Teignmouth
By Paul Scholes
26th Feb 2014 14:58

Few thoughts & queries

What Cloud systems have you tried?

With regard to invoicing, for example, if you set up the customer/supplier record properly, then most of the boxes are pre-filled for you, eg account, VAT & descriptions leaving you to enter a date and amount.

Alternatively, if you are invoicing the same customers each month, you can set up recurring invoices, and if these have the same amount as last month, these can be prepared and emailed without any human intervention and, with some systems you can record payment, ie if the customer is paying by DDR or STO you can record the payment against the invoice at the same time.

Alternatively, again if invoicing the same customer, but at odd times, just find the last invoice to them and copy it, changing the date & details.

Ditto bills & suppliers

Also, most systems work well with the tab key, rather than mouse clicks, to move you around the input screens.

Finally, you could always input the details cell by cell on a CSV file and import it.

Finally, finally, if you get fed up doing the invoicing, let the client do it, that's the main benefit of Cloud accounting.

There are over 20 Cloud systems to pick from and I can assure you some have had a lot of input from accountants but then, like IT developers there are Accountants and there are Accountants.

 

 

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By User deleted
26th Feb 2014 15:12

@ Paul ...

... beleive me, I am a lazy sod (well oK, get bored easy) and if there is a quick way I'll find it.

Freegent is a nightmare explaining bank transactions where there are many, it is a tedious click click click click click, especially where it has guessed but you need to review, I se no saving in that as it is as lengthy as if you "explained" it yourself.

A one man band with high volume will not do it themselves, the will get as bored as me, and they can earn more in the lost time than they pay me, the point is neither of us shpuld need to waste the time if the software was sensibly written.

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Teignmouth
By Paul Scholes
26th Feb 2014 15:37

So don't do it

Hi OGA - reminds me of the Tommy Cooper joke:

Accountant:"Doctor, when I raise my arm like this it hurts" 

Doctor:"So don't do it"

None of my FreeAgent clients have loads of transactions, well one has but it's through Paypal and they are easy to explain. So either drop the bank statement upload/feed or move to software that makes it easier.  Both Xero & ClearBooks for example enable you to generate bank rules so that it recogniaes bank transactions and knows where to put them or which invoices/bills to look at matching.

Many people will already have entered loads of manual bank entries, say when receiving money from customers or paying off bills, and so, uploading the bank statement just to go through each item and match it can be a waste of time, so just use the non-invoice/bill payment items to explain the transactions and delete the rest, reconciling the bank balance will show if you are OK.

Not sure in Xero but in CB you can bypass all this and just go through the list of bank transactions you've already entered and tick them off to the bank statement (like we iused to in QuickBooks), again you can then just delete these from the uploaded statement or don't upload them in the first place.

 

 

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By User deleted
26th Feb 2014 17:19

Exactly Paul ...

... that is the point, hardly a good tactic having a product people can't use so they go elsewhere!

It would be easier to down load the statement as a csv, spend a few minutes tweaking and then import into SAGE!

I have a new client already on SAGE 1, need to see how similar it works to Line 50, because it looks good and if I recycle my SAGE knowledge rather than teach this old dog too many new tricks I'm laughing!

 

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Teignmouth
By Paul Scholes
26th Feb 2014 18:04

Blaming the tools?

Sorry OGA, if you or your client have picked a bookkeeping system that's not suitable for their needs then it doesn't necessarily mean the bookkeeping system is at fault, someone didn't do their research properly.

I don't think I've heard anyone say that FreeAgent is a match in functionality for Sage, it's precisely that reason why it was so useful for my clients who didn't need all the bells and whistles, the ones who would have been lost with Sage or QBs.

It's not as if FreeAgent surround themselves with hype over what they can do it's pretty obvious from their support site and within an hour of playing with it what you are getting, plus there's been loads of comment on here.

Putting it another way, if someone asked you to arrange a road holiday for 5 people would you hire a Winnebago or a Ford Focus?

If you are so comfortable with Sage then yes, have a go with Sage One, why wouldn't you?

Then please come back and tell us what you think, there's hardly been any detailed stuff on this or QBO, which, considering their monopoly of the desk market, is still a surprise to me.

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Ed Molyneux
By Ed Molyneux
27th Feb 2014 10:08

Ongoing Evolution

OGA - just to chip in in our defence for a second:

Only a generation of software ago the client (or you) would be entering each transaction manually and individually. In fact, some current products still require this. But most modern systems have daily updates of bank data now, so the work has moved to a different place.

As Paul implies, FreeAgent was not originally conceived for clients with large volumes of varied transactions. We do handle recurring transactions and bulk-explaining similar ones fairly well.

But yes, it's an area of the application that many users spend most of their time and we're always working to make tasks more streamlined.

We're already sketching out ideas to improve this area, and your feedback is noted!

Ed Molyneux - FreeAgent Founder and CEO

 

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By the_fishmonger
27th Feb 2014 11:15

Catching up

I have experience of a few - 5 or 6 - cloud systems so far. Clients won't pay what they consider over the odds for some better known brands. I don't wish to name any specifically as particularly bad or otherwise, just taking the general angle on this.

I would love it if our clients did their own posting. But having seen the results of those who tried (to cut the fees!), we have generally found it much more time consuming putting through the corrections because the systems were too clunky. In most other cases, clients have specifically come to us for our service because they have no intention, no matter how simple it is made, of doing the paperwork they have no interest in learning about.

On your point of setting up standard invoices, Paul. That is fine for sales but far fewer clients have vast volumes of outgoing invoices than they have receipts and supplier invoices. You cannot just use the bank links to enter payments as the transaction should be recorded when the obligation to transfer beneficial ownership (etc.) occurs, not when it clears the bank. Okay, so for most things, that is +/- 3 days but it doesn't make it right*.

Many may accept the tab key for navigation but most have problems understanding that the Return key means you want to 'Add' or Add another'.

As for invoices with multiple analysis items...I've been in and out of the 'special' reading room in less time than that takes.

The points I make are not just mine. This is a very frequently debated subject at CPD gatherings and it astounds me that our world has become so fragmented that there is no one asking why less functional software is being accepted when what we're used to works perfectly well away from the cloud.

Ed - Come and see someone in action on one of your competitors products with a pile of invoices and see what is wanted by some of us. Depending on where you are, I may even chance a day out of the office...always happy to work with people who are prepared to listen.

Cheers, Fishy

* very fed up with the new British attitude of "it's near enough". Imagine plonking your lunch box on the nuclear reactor cooling system off-switch when you meant to put it down an inch away. Would you expect to get away with saying "it's near enough" after irradiating half the UK? It's the small details that made us great as opposed to the lazy dole collecting whingers the nation is becoming!

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By User deleted
27th Feb 2014 12:12

@ Ed

Thanks for your comment.

My point is that great, we can download the bank straight to teh software, but it actually then takes longer to go in and explain teh transactions than if you either keyed them in straight from the staements, or import a csv file that has been "groomed".

What to a layman like my self would be 2 simple but incredibly useful improvements would be:

The ability to select blocks of entries, either by check box or ctrl&click and explain the whole batch as one;When reviewing entires, if would be great to hover over the entries so the suggested explanation is shown, and then click a button to accept, as reviewing currently is as labourious as explaining yourself in the first place which sems self-defeating to me.

I think limiting a product to a niche market is short-sighted, and I think the price for the product is too high for what it does.

I think £10pm for the current product is more realistic, and that should include the bank feed option, but would accpet say £12 pm to include that. The SAGE model is better in terms of having different grades with more functionality.

As a simple old dog I do not want to have to junk my greying head with the learn the ins and outs of many packages, I want one good one, and as an IRIS user I was hoping it would be Freeagent to get full integration, although they now have Kashflow too.

Personaly, as an acountant I still find SAGE the easiest and best to use in most instances, its only draw back to me is being desk bound

What would be useful would be for software houses to talk to the banks so that when you make an online payment you have an optional field to put a nominal code in, and possibly a box to put a VAT rate, so that they could be imported direct with any need for explanations.

 

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By redman7
27th Feb 2014 12:30

FreeAgent

I would only really advise FreeAgent for simple service based businesses and contractors. This is the majority of my client base so it works amazingly great for me. If you've got hundreds & hundreds of bank transactions going through each month it's probably not the most efficient system.

I also use FreeAgent for my practices books, things like recurring monthly invoices make it a doddle. My business costs are minimal and most of my expenses go through the credit card which makes analysis easier as FreeAgent seems to guess the explanations better on credit card transactions.

Horses for courses.

 

 

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By User deleted
27th Feb 2014 12:55

I guess ...

... I am just vexed about the expectation gap caused by IRIS sales promises and the actual product!

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By Ken Howard
27th Feb 2014 13:12

Surely there are simple efficiency improvements?

When you actually look at why VT is so quick, you realise that they've not done anything brilliant and it's not rocket science.  In fact, it's all rather simple which makes it all the more annoying that other software and particularly cloud software hasn't copied these simple features.

To take one single issue, the entry of a date.  FAC is an absolute nightmare as it requires you to type in 01 jan 14 or click on the calendar - you can't enter a date from the number keypad only!  Now look at VT and you've loads of ways, i.e. enter it as 010114 or 01012014 and it even pre-populates with suggestions so if you're entering Jan 14 transactions, you can just enter 12 and it prepopulates the rest to make 120114 - that's a massive time saving when you're doing a lot of entries.  Even better, you can simply press the + and - keys to change dates forward and back.  Quickbook data entry is very similar in terms of speed and ease, but I don't think it's quite as good  (after all the old version, Quicken was an shortened version of "quick entry"!

I think it's clear that the developers who wrote Quicken and VT were well accustomed to numeric data entry by the way they were written around the numeric keypad, presumably they were trained and worked as book-keepers or data entry clerks somewhere along their working lives!  By contrast, the cloud offerings seem to be written by programmers who live by the mouse, which is fine for some software users, but it really does slow down basic/routine data entry.

Cloud programmers please take note.  (Although I'm not holding my breath because I've previously contacted both FAC and Kashflow to suggest they look at VT and QB to see how they deal with numeric data entry, in particular the date issues mentioned above, and just received generic responses so I don't really think they see the problem - or maybe they don't care!)

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By User deleted
27th Feb 2014 15:35

For the record ...

... of the two I get infuriated with one has 75- 100 tranasctions per week, the other 75 - 100 tranasctions per month - that is not high volume to me.

The one with the weekly figure it is mainly auto credits in for online sales and bank transfers out for agents commission. Most of these all go to the same place but because they are all different names the system won't learn them, just to be able to batch and post as one woul be wonderful, or even for the system to "remember" the last explanation picked so when I click on the list of accounts I don't have to scroll from motor to commisson everytime!

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By PAMDILL
27th Feb 2014 15:35

Same Argument with Xero

I have a couple of clients on Xero, 2 are no problem with it, but one is a nightmare.  Hundreds of transactions every month.  Even with downloading  the csv template for supplier and sales invoices to enter it is so slow.

 

Unfortunately they have not set up a bank feed so bank reconciliations are a nightmare, and why can it not let you enter a supplier payment in the way Sage Line 50 does.  Currently I have to copy the bank statement to a csv, upload and then go through and click for transfers, then for customer receipts and supplier payments click for a search, highlight, click etc.

I really do not think Xero is designed for a company with a large volume of transactions.

 

I am currently waiting for Sage to return with a reply as to if their One Accounts or One Accounts Extra could cope with the volume.  Unfortunately due to the nature of their business I cannot move them back to a desktop package.

 

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Teignmouth
By Paul Scholes
28th Feb 2014 16:16

OGA & Fishy

OGA - so I think your gripe is with Iris?  And as far as FreeAgent limiting themselves to a "niche" market is concerned, firstly it's common knowledge where they aim themselves, so again, if your clients don't fit, look elsewhere, and secondly, the niche is huge, Ed what are you up to now with users?  40K? maybe still biggest in UK?

Fishy - on the supplier bills v customer Invoices, see my original comment "ditto".  In ClearBooks I don't use the bank for these.  If there are lots of recurring ones month after month I set them up as recurring, leaving the sum to repeat or leaving it blank, to input the amount.  Similarly, if paid by DDR or STO, say 3 days later I can set that at the same time, to enter up the bank & pay off the bill.

If however you have loads of varying items to enter then this is exactly what facilities like ReceiptBank or Keebo are for, people on here have sworn by this sort of facility to save time. 

These and similar facilities use electronic character recognition to search a PDF and pick out the key data, supplier, dates, sums, VAT etc and, it won't be long until some bookkeeping systems build them into the software, so, at the moment I email a bill to my ClearBooks account to attach to the bookkeeping entry I generate, it won't be too long till I open the software and the bill is there entered for me to check.

Honestly folks do the legwork the facilities you want, to match anything on your desk and more, are out there.  

Also, working with CBs, I've seen hundreds of enhancements introduced to the software (including many of my own) in the past 6 months, this is the beauty of Cloud stuff, you don't have to wait two years for the next version, in the hope that one extra button you've been moaning on about, appears.

This can happen every week in the Cloud or, if it's something specific to your or a client's need, then they can, for a fee, build it for you, try that with Sage or VT.

  

 

 

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By User deleted
28th Feb 2014 17:20

Things is ...

... the niche may be "huge" but the product is overkill for it, in my view from the experience I have of using it it falls between two stools on that score.

My client base must be atypical as it is either too much or not enough for most.

I would go on so far as to say, the clients in the niche it fits do not actually need an accountant, other than possibly for reassurance!

My frustration is that Freeagent is so nearly perfect, but for the few tweaks mentioned - and that it is over-priced. Unfortunately being in a full time expanding practice I do not have the time to road test as quickly and as many products as you Paul :o) .

I am chipping away slowly and will get there.

QBO - I like the "ask accountant" routine

SAGE one, very early days but looks promising

Xero - bores me, I see no benefits yet over SAGE other than the cloud based one.

CB - not looked at yet

KashFlow, new client this week wants to use it so we'll see.

My main problem is I look at them primarily from an accountants perspective, rather than a users - i.e. how easy can I get it in to IRIS, and how easy is it to interrogate from an final accounts/CT600 viewpoint - that is to say big picture rather than the minutae the client may be excited by!

 

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By Cardigan
28th Feb 2014 20:49

Much faster on Sage than online packages

I know Sage gets some bad rap on here but I am much faster at entering transactions on Sage than on the online systems I've used. It's mainly to do with being able to use the keyboard instead of the mouse as mentioned above. I've upgraded my broadband to the fastest available and it hasn't made that much of a difference.

I'm not the only one. My newest recruit mentioned it to me too (without any prompting).

I've often wondered how difficult it would be to combine the best of the online and offline packages - entering the transactions "offline" and then batch posting them etc.

I investigated the hosted version of Sage 50 but it doesn't allow exporting to Excel. Major drawback.

I have also found that the smaller clients tend to buy the off the shelf packages rather than online due to the cost difference, except for techies who favour the Freeagent type software.

I have some larger clients on cloud software due to having offices in different locations. That's where cloud software comes into its own.

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Ed Molyneux
By Ed Molyneux
05th Mar 2014 10:30

Still Learning

@OGA and @fishy both - and in fact Paul too - we're based in beautiful Edinburgh (the happiest city in the UK according to the ONS) and you're all cordially invited to visit, all (reasonable) expenses paid!

Let's sit down with the product team and see where we get to. Just drop me a line and we'll find a date ([email protected]).

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Teignmouth
By Paul Scholes
05th Mar 2014 17:27

Fit for whose purpose

OGA - a very telling comment: I would go on so far as to say, the clients in the niche it fits do not actually need an accountant, other than possibly for reassurance.

This is how it has been going for years and yes, some businesses are reaching the point where they need only a fraction of the compliance help they needed from their accountant 5 years ago and hundreds of thousand or even millions of other businesses have never seen the need for one to help with the numbers.

C'est la vie.

And then:

My main problem is I look at them primarily from an accountants perspective, rather than a users - i.e. how easy can I get it in to IRIS, and how easy is it to interrogate from an final accounts/CT600 viewpoint - that is to say big picture rather than the minutae the client may be excited by!

I agree this is a problem. Looking at what you are interested in, your use of the system may well represent 1/365th of your client's use and so I think the client's aspect is the bigger picture when it comes to assessing a system's worth?

With regard to testing out products, again C'est la vie, I only had 5 to look at 4 years ago, you now have >20  I had a similar discussion yesterday with a firm who have been through months of comparison and, even with the extra time I've built into the way I run my practice, there's no way I could learn properly >3 systems, ie not well enough to support the client and so, if I was approached now by a client who said he wanted to use KashFlow, I'd probably refer him to you.

It is far better for the accountant to be able to offer what s/he regards as a suitable range of systems than having to face a client doing it for themselves.  Is your client best placed to judge what's best?  

 

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Teignmouth
By Paul Scholes
05th Mar 2014 17:30

Fast input - Clear Books

Just a quicky - I've just discovered that Clear Books has a fast entry "batch" screen where, using tab, space bar & return key (+ mouse for date) you can punch in batches of purchase or sales invoices.

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Teignmouth
By Paul Scholes
05th Mar 2014 17:32

@ed

Would love to visit Edinburgh again but I've been a happy user of FreeAgent for years, plus, given my comments above, I'd have a bit of a conflict of interest with CBs.

Anyway, thanks for the offer.

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By User deleted
05th Mar 2014 17:49

SAGE One

First negative feedback

Looks good for £10pm, but to get more than very basic info out need to upgrade to £25pm option!

Client using it uses the AWB number as a reference, invoice number default SAGE number.

To actually search by AWB number is not possible without 150% increase in cost.

Anyone who knows what I am talking about will understand the importance of tracing AWB numbers as they are king.

Was reading the Kashflow post earlier, the pricing plan looks spot on, just need to see what you get for it!

@ Paul, agree with your comments, my problem is IRIS's marketing startegy which is economic with the truth and creates an expectation gap.

My client base is trade based rather than profesional services based and these still very much want compliance services, and they are being pushed products by the banks that as I pick up the pieces am finding are not suitable for them - may be software is the new PPI!

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By User deleted
07th Mar 2014 13:41

My conclusions are ...

... that cloud accounting as a value for money solution is highly over-rated.

Having spent a couple of days looking for a solution to a simple problem I find a client is looking at £300pa on the cloud for what is a simple solution that SAGE Instant Accounts can easily do for a one off £130, the having to have a backup from the client is not a biggee these days if you make use of Openspace or Dropbox, certainly not enough of one to warrant paying the rip off pricing for cloud.

The more I look in to it it really is a case of the emperors new clothes.

The products are generally woefully inadequate for more than a hobby business - in relaton to the prices charged which in my opinion are 100% over the top of what they shold be, and still the majority of clients would probably like the dashboards but want a contracted book-keeper/accountant to do the leg work.

Just my view!

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