I have just started a thread in the marketing and accountants section. For a while I have thought that marketing is a lot like accounting. There are underlying principles, proven methods and shared attitudes, like prudence! Yes, good marketing is about being prudent!
The marketing of a practice should be key asset and the amount of money needed to grow profit will be less if there are no marketing liabilities such as poor customer service, weak branding and poor systems/processes.
Any accountants interested in giving me some feedback on this report please contact me, I am keen to make sure my debits and credits make sense!
Bob Harper
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marketing like accounting?
thats like asking if big brother is like mastermind.
one is mostly full of wannabees and failures while the other contains clever, skillful people.
poor comparison.
Do you realise -
one is mostly full of wannabees and failures while the other contains clever, skillful people.
poor comparison.
Posted by JCresswellTax on Mon, 29/11/2010 - 22:55
You do realise that now, Bob will think your calling salesment "clever skillful people" ?
Wannbes
@JCresswellTax - good to see your face.
Isn’t a wannabe someone who is striving to be something, someone who wants to make a difference, someone who is prepared to be different? Not sure if you have kids but I hope mine are wannabes. I hope mine want to make a difference.
The wannabes in the profession deserve success and if they get their marketing sorted they will avoid failure. The rest will just get by and for me that is a failure because there is so much they could do to help their clients.
Bob Harper
To the AW powers that be - Becky?
Please, please, please, please can we have a "kill file" so that we can block certain posters from appearing on our screen.
I was under the impression that AW was a forum for exchanging useful information about accountantancy and tax issues. I simply cannot understand why certain posters (who I would immediately add to a kill list) are permitted to blatantly advertise their businesses on these boards. (Now if it was actually useful advertising perhaps, but............)
is it just me that feels sorry for Bob?
Bob,
You know what, when I splutter into my coffee at your posts of a morning I am really starting to feel sorry for you.
I dont doubt some of the stuff you do is helpful to a certain sort of practice, especialy one where the owner has poor business acumen, wants a large practice and doesnt know how to get there - but the harder you push yourself forward the worse it sounds, especially when you keep attacking people who have made the CHOICE to stay small.
You post a lot about marketing 'rules'. Looking like you are desperate for work is one of the biggest turnoffs for a potential customer for services no matter what line of work you are in, and I must admit you are giving off vibes (rightly or wrongly, and I sincerely hope wrongly) that you are staring down at an order book with about 3 days work between now and Christmas.
Calm down, post less, push less and you will get more.
I should be a marketing guru you know.
Regards,
Poor Bob
"bigbadwolf" and "ireallyshould" have expressed sentiments that I have thought for some time. I feel sorry for him, I really do. He's trying hard for his business but he ends up turning off people. Maybe for his own good and that of his business, Bob should just take a few weeks off from AW and perhaps then reappear with a different, less brittle approach and manner.
Guru
@ireallyshouldkn - like your name, you really shouldn't I just finished my coffee and breakfast down the beach. Cold but sunny Cornwall is
Marketing is not about big; it is about beautiful - this is often small like the guy I am working with today who signs clients up over the phone while fishing because his proposition is so strong.
How many days work do I have? I probably do have three days work in terms of operational delivery but I am stacked out developing and I may stop “work” next year altogether. That will give me more time to research and develop.
Yes, you should be a guru. Accountants should be helping their clients with much more than accountancy.
@BigBadWolf - I did not use the word “it” unless you count that.
@nigelburge - try not clicking on my posts and not reading my comments.
Bob Harper
@ Bob
Your comment to nigelburge is not appropriate.
When contributors saturate AWeb with posts it is virtually impossible to avoid them. You know that from your own experience. That individual who shall remain nameless uses the same argument as you have.
Therefore you are, in effect, saying to nigelburge if you don't like it, then leave Aweb. He obviously doesn't want to and he is not asking you to. His suggestion is a sound one. This is the 21st Century. So that we don't have to endure spam we have a spam filter. It shouldn't be beyond Sift to introduce something similiar.
I wouldn't filter you out Bob, but I might others. I do enjoy some of your posts!
-- Kind regards Andy
PS. Yes, I agree that there is double-entry in marketing just as there is in bookkeeping. In fact you can look beyond marketing and see that double-entry is simply a nerdy way of describing what happens generally in life. eg. I drink a cup of tea - debit my belly, credit cup. eg. 2 I sleep with another man's wife - debit my self-esteem, credit his. I am being theoretical here, you understand.
One in a hundred
@Red Leader - if you haven't worked it out, I am happy (want) to alienate 99 in every 100. I want to push people away and I am happy if 99% of accountants say they hate me. It is the 1% I care about and I want them to love what I do, even if they do my love me. That's for my wife and kids.
The positive comments I have from AW are more than my 99:1 ratio, you are just part of the 99. Nothing personal - the difference is I do not hate the 99%, I just do not agree with them.
Bob Harper
Points of view
@Andy - really?
When I click on Any Answers I get a list of posts and I can see who posted and sometimes see a picture! I assume this is what nigelburge sees?
All Nigel needs to do is move and find something useful to post on. I would suggest this post https://www.accountingweb.co.uk/topic/practice/accountants-are-more-adap...
Bob Harper
If...
... you find someone annoying or can see through them in 0.1 seconds then just ignore them, a response just gives then the credibility and opportunity to pontificate ad nauseam.
The thread title said it all, you wouldn't get a prize for guessing who started it.
Carry on Bob
Bob, I do not agree with ally your posts but you bring in a different perspective. Okay at times I feel some of your posts are bordering on spam. This is outweighed by different perspective you bring to AW.
I love the debates(?) between you, C_D and Peter. They bring so many different view points.
Andy-are you pointing to me? I will carry on posting. As you know anyone can post on AW. There are no limits on number of posts. I find AW a great help. It really helps with my work.
IP to II
@Trevor - I had a call yesterday from a guy looking to set-up next year. I am thinking that it will help explain marketing using accountancy language like I used to explain tax in layman’s terms to clients.
For example, when you have a debit on brand, positioning, creativity or methodology you need to credit the bank. Everyone seems so interested in thinking how much marketing costs when they should be thinking.
I also find it interesting to stop thinking of human resource as an asset to be leveraged by being efficient and to start thinking of accountants as effective human capital. The idea is to take Intellectual Property (IP) and create Intellectual Capital (products) which can be licensed to clients to create Intellectual income (II).
Bob Harper
Sorry Bob, its over my head
Bob - From my point of view, I don't really understand what you are offering or what kind of Marketing you promote.
As a result of this, many of your posts fail to interest me although I have a sneaking suspicion you could actually be able to grow my business quicker than I am at the moment, that is slow growth but growth nevertheless.
As you are not an Accountant and you have a narrow (but valuable) focus in Marketing, in my opinion you don't add to the discussions in a relevant way or help the contributors looking for a quick yet professional answer.
That said, I do feel your experience and drive in your field could help many people on this website. I wonder if "Any Answers Marketing" could be set up for you to air your views and answer other peoples questions so that people know where to go for Marketing advice and you could do regular blogs as you feel the need.
Maybe I'm just trying to keep everyone happy but what do others think, including you Bob?
Any Answers Marketing
@BigBave1971 - I could not grow your business quicker than you; I may be able to help you grow your business quicker but only if you have the raw materials. Most do, they just don't know it.
I let my accounting qualifications slip, but I still qualify as an accountant but there are often no quick answers and often the answer is counter intuitive.
My view on Any Answers Marketing is that everything is marketing but if you do not want to read why I post don't.
Bob Harper
Different
"Maybe I'm just trying to keep everyone happy but what do others think"
Must say that I am either not interested in or I disagree with 99% of what Bob says but I wouldn't start suggesting he shouldn't be allowed to post. Whilst the things he says often don't directly answer what the OP is asking, I think it's often very valuable to have input from someone who approaches things from a completely different angle to everybody else. Even if you don't agree with the specific points they make, it can still open your eyes to a wider picture. It can give you ideas totally different to your own first ideas (and often totally different to their suggested alternative) but it's that different angle of approach which is important, not what they actually say.
Of course from what Bob says there are plenty of people who have taken on board exactly what he's said and are reaping the rewards, what Bob sometimes seems to miss is that not everyone is after the same rewards. It's all horses for courses, each to his own etc etc.
.
Bob - OK I meant you could probably "help" me to grow my business quicker than I could do so on my own.
Anyway, the fact that you think that there are "often no quick answers and often the answer is counter intuitive" shows that you work in a very different way to the real Accountancy world. Clients often need an answer, just a yes or no answer or perhaps a steer in the right direction or maybe tax saving advice, etc, etc. Rightly or wrongly they don't always want radical Marketing advice or want their business turned upside down, they just want answer.
I didn't say I don't want to read your views, I just thought they could be kept in one place not spread everywhere. At the moment they can't be avoided whether one likes it or not.
Wow you wind me up!!
Radical
@mwngiol - thanks.
The rewards for firms (whatever size) of effective marketing are higher recovery rates for the accountants, more enjoyable clients and more value for the client. Sounds a good deal to me.
@Bigdave1971 - trust me, I have been there when I was in practice. The client would call me and it goes something like this “just a quickie Bob….” which translates to “don’t charge me for your knowledge”.
Interestingly, the accountants who call me for advice do get a quickie from me and some don’t like the answer, like the guy last week who called about PPC and I said don’t bother because of the design or lack of on the Website.
He got all offended and hurt instead of taking it on-board and thinking about what I said. Do not get wound up by me, keep in mind that as I write there is a twinkle in my eye and a smile on my face. It’s just a persona!!
Bob Harper
zigazig ha
@JCresswellTax - I think you were going to say what you really wanna wannabe! All I ask is that you don't go wasting my precious time, so tell me what you really really wannabe.
Bob Harper
Debits and Credits
Is this the right way around?
Double entry marketing = Dr on your firm's positioning Cr bank because you need to cover up the liability by spending more than you need to.
Double entry selling = Dr Value Proposition Cr Sales Pressure because the weaker your proposition the harder you need to work in sales.
Bob Harper
Beware
A professional practice is not something that can be "sold". You can't do "buy 2 get 1 free" offers, January sales, or any of the other things that high street shops do. You really don't want to be advertising that you are cheaper than the rest, unless of course years of study really do mean nothing to you. Anyone who tells you they can get you clients by cold calling is a fool out to line his own pockets, because cold calling simply ensures that you get a reputation for being pushy, and a reputation for being poor quality if you are that desperate for work. Mail shots tend to have the same effect.
Getting your name in front of people who might need your services at some point, is what can be done, but even this needs to be done in a way which reflects well upon your business as a professional practice.
Sponsoring local sports teams (particularly kids) is a good way, free advice clinics is another, Christmas brings it's own opportunities. Our firm's Christmas party was dumped years ago, and instead we do a Christmas Party for pensioners, we pay for it, and the staff have a great time driving the pensioers to and from it, serving on table, fetching those unsteady on their feet drinks from the bar - to make them even more unsteady on their feet :) and generally giving them a good time. Not "advertising" - but dam good PR.
In a profession reputation is everything, and "sellingh" can destroy your reputation faster than anything else.
@ CD
The largest component firm in Tenon before the purchase of Bentley Jennison was built from a very small shoe box practice to a multi million pound enterprise that spun out two successful listed PLC's, by two men in 20 odd years through telemarketing and mailshotting... and they did it whilst becoming known as the higest quality firm in the region and considered as a creditable alternative to not only any top 20 firm, but actually any top 4 (5 or 6 as it then was).
I absolutely agreee with your PR suggestions - not only from a buisness point of view, but from a human point of view - but I do not accept that you cannot sell services and that to try to so so is almost evil.
Albert Camus
Albert
I absolutely agreee with your PR suggestions - not only from a buisness point of view, but from a human point of view - but I do not accept that you cannot sell services and that to try to so so is almost evil.
Albert Camus
Posted by Albert Camus on Tue, 30/11/2010 - 19:40
You can "sell" services - you cannot sell professional services.
Let's just say that Bob could "telemarket" or "mail shot" every one of our clients and I can guarantee we wouldn't lose a single client. In fact the only outcome would be that Bob would learn the Welsh for "**** off & stop wasting my time". Businesses don't change accountants, unless there is already something wrong in their relationship with their current accountant. It isnt like pursuading someone to change their stationary supplier. However, accountants using such selling methods will alienate businesses and ensure that they don't pick them up should they move in the future.
Don't agree
Sorry CD but I'm afraid you can sell professional services or rather you can market them. There are people out there who can be won over by a sales pitch, rather than quality and recommendation. I wouldn't mind betting that there is still a very sizeable proportion of people who choose their accountant on the basis of their presence in Yellow Pages or a Google search of Accountant/East Grinstead. They're fools, but yes there are gains to be made.
Whether those fools become good clients is up to the accountant of course.
In many ways, that's what Bob is doing. The theory behind a lot of the postings is to generate traffic, so that Google searching Accountant/Martketing brings up his firm. Every link that appears in AWeb to his business is another point on his score, especially if followed through to his business. That's one of the primary counters behind Google presence, hence the posting volume. AWeb are inadvertantly promoting his business and all without getting a penny, I assume.
I agree
@MarionMorrison - totally agree if you define a sales pitch is a sound business case for a change of professional advisers. Marketing is a about getting permission to get around the table to have a discussion.
Quality is an entry ticket, the rest rooms in a restaurant. Every restaurant has them and they better be clean. Every accountant MUST be quality and they would do well be be VERY specific.
Recommendations are part of marketing; it is just a case of controlling and stimulating them more effectively.
As regards Google, at the moment I estimate the Internet can bring 15% of new business to a firm and the quality is almost as good as a referral. A firm I am working with is singing clients with fees over £1,000 up over the phone while fishing this summer. But, he does have a strong proposition so it is not enough to have volume; visitors for vanity - conversions for sanity.
I predict internet marketing will grow in importance as the online conversation/communities grow and this is where the specialists can really win. This may take years but my posts are about developing a profitable and sustainable practice which I why I have a free 30-minute training video on my Website.
Bob Harper
BOB
I hate sticking up for him because he is big enough and certainly ugly enough to do so himself, but why the hostility? Is it because he sometimes makes us ask questions of ourselves that we don't like the answers to?
Regardless of the reason(s) some of the responses on here are out of order and uneccessary.
I met Bob through this forum and he has been one of the most inspirational people that I have met and has helped me shape my way of thinking.
Sometimes I think that he talks b*llocks and will tell him so, but there are only 2 or 3 other posters on here that I would value as much as him and if he ceased to contribute then aweb would be devalued, in my humble.
@ Bob
Only you could take that you 'talk b****cks' as a compliment.
What a tough hide you have. Keep it up.
-- Kind regards Andy