Duplicate employments caused by works numbers on Sage

Duplicate employments caused by works numbers...

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I know questions about duplicate employments have done the rounds but this one appears to relate to an issue not previously addressed.  I am close to tearing my hair out trying to get a response out of HMRC or Sage so just wondered whether anyone else has had the same issue.

We have several clients who are on annual schemes.  Nothing unusual there.  However, now we are receiving two coding notices for individual employees (directors, in reality) for several of our clients - all annual scheme ones.  The only difference on the coding notices, other than the actual code, is the Works Number.  On one it will be the RTI ID, on the other it will be the works ID from the payslip.

HMRC have told us that it is a known issue with Sage and that Sage need to change the RTI ID to the Works ID.  Sage are saying they can change the RTI ID but only to a different RTI ID - that bit I understand.  We have taken it through the complaints procedure with HMRC on one client and HMRC have basically come back and said that Sage need to fix it, then we can submit our next FPS and all will be fine and dandy.

Two issues with that - the next FPS will be month 12 this year when we process the annual employees, so it's not going to fix it for the P60 this year.  Secondly, Sage say they can't change it in the way that HMRC want them to.

Has anyone else dealt with this issue or can anyone advise me where to go next in order to try to get a resolution?  As I say, I've tried Sage's helpline.  I've also tried Online Service (who relayed it to Technical Services) and the Employers Helpline at HMRC.

Thanks.

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By tom123
02nd Oct 2015 11:32

Had the same issue

I have had the same issue, for myself as it happens.

I got a coding notice quoting my RTI number, and also another quoting my works number.

Not unreasonably, when doing my SA last year, I put my 'works' number on the SA return - leading to HMRC thinking I had two employments, - and giving me a D0 code..

The only fix, in my case, was to tell HMRC to cancel one of the employments (the works number one).

Just seems an odd way to carry on. Surely bigger employers (we only have 30 staff) would want HMRC correspondence to quote the works number?

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By bendybod
02nd Oct 2015 12:09

One of the conversations with HMRC did, indeed, lead to the person on the other end of the phone saying that the individual concerned needed to phone because it's their tax code and so they couldn't discuss it with me.  My response was that the end result is that the tax code is incorrect but the issue that's causing it is an employer / employer software issue, not a personal issue and that I, as the employer's agent, need to sort out how it gets resolved for all of my clients.

My problem is that this is affecting a significant number of clients and the likelihood of me being able to persuade all of them to phone HMRC and sit on the phone for 35 minutes to sort it out individually is remote.  Plus, as they are saying that it's a Sage issue, what's to stop it happening again next year?

Can I ask whether your experience was through using Sage payroll?

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Routemaster image
By tom123
02nd Oct 2015 12:23

Inadvertently

I suppose I created my own problem by quoting the works number on my SA return.

Had I not done so, I wouldn't have ended up with the duplicate employments.

The rest of the staff all appear to be on 'sensible' tax codes, so I don't think anyone else is affected.

After this, I did look at our RTI filings, and noticed everyone is referred to via the RTI number.

Whether Sage has the option to report via works number I don't know.

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Euan's picture
By Euan MacLennan
02nd Oct 2015 14:14

Not mandatory to quote ID

As I understand it, Sage insists on automatically generating an ID for every employee and then on quoting it in the FPS, but according to the RTI specifications (scroll down a bit), the Payroll ID is not even required, unless it is a second employment with the employer in the same tax year.

Your complaint should be directed to Sage.  They should amend their program to stop quoting their internally generated RTI ID and instead, to quote your Works Number/Payroll ID, if you have chosen to enter one, or nothing if you haven't.  This is what Moneysoft does.

Better still, change to Moneysoft for your payroll.

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By bendybod
02nd Oct 2015 20:57

Sage
HMRC told us to get Sage to sort it too. I can't see how Sage correcting their software is going to help us when we post our annual scheme employees in March though, as last year's have already been filed, which is what created the problem. Assuming that we use one or other of the codes, the March 16 FPS will have the incorrect code and so the soonest we can submit a correct return is March 2017.
In the meantime, we need HMRC to delete one of the employments in each case so that our clients can have the correct tax codes allocated now.

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