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Efficiency overkill

Efficiency overkill

Didn't find your answer?

Not a question, just a heads-up.

We have had a few cases recently of forms P800T being issued by employer districts, in respect of our clients, showing overpayments of tax for 2011-12.

But the clients concerned have filed 2011-12 self assessment tax returns, the overpayments claimed thereon and already repaid.

One to watch out for.  Looks like they are getting gung-ho with their new-fangled up to date data and forgetting to cross reference with the SA system.

With kind regards

Clint Westwood

Replies (13)

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By karen.morriscook
13th Mar 2013 14:15


This is something that has been brought up at working together meetings.  All the Revenue will say is that they are aware of the problem and are working on a solution.

Apparently the SA system and the paye system just work completely independently and there is no cross checking between the two.

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By halesir
13th Mar 2013 16:51


Another example of "unjoined" inefficiency! We've been getting these every year for a few years now. In one case PAYE section allocated all PA to GP Doctor's part time employment and repaid all the tax. Problem was she had a profit share under SA of over £200K so not due any refund!!

What chance RTI??!!

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By Ajtms
15th Mar 2013 12:14

Duplicate Assessment P800 + SA100

I have experienced many examples of this. The worst was for a customer who died in June 2010.  A SA100 was completed and lodged for the period to date of death and by December 2011 HMRC issued a formal clearance letter so the estate was distributed and my file archived.

Then in October 2012 we receive a P800 for 2010/2011 with an accompanying formal assessment notice as they wanted to illegally charge tax on 52 weeks worth of State Pension whereas my customer was only alive for 9 weeks in the year. They therefore totally ignored the SA100 and the fact that they had issued a formal clearance letter. 

HMRC are now paying our fees.


In another case a 2010/2011 SA100 was lodged and tax of £1,700 paid in a timely way. Unknown to me a P800 was issued to my elderly customer which was ignored due to her age of 85. At a later stage she had HMRC debt collectors knocking on her door demanding £1,700. Being almost frightened to death she gave them a cheque and then telephoned me. I immediately telephoned HMRC to tell them in no uncertain terms that if they cash the cheque we would take action as they well know that they had duplicated assessments and liabilities. Naturally they cashed the cheque and had to accept the consequences where it became very costly for them.

It is a great shame that compensation is not taken from HMRC's salary bill instead of out of taxpayers money! There should also be some accountability for their actions, but sadly nobody cares.


Thanks (1)
By monksview
15th Mar 2013 12:17


Received regularly.  HMRC are idiots.  I had one case last week where the return showed large liability, POAs last year and this, but they later issued a P800 with a repayment due.  Not remotely joined up.

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By stewee
15th Mar 2013 12:26

And who do we charge...??

Recently had 3 years underpayments request for one client - arrived on a Saturday so client had weekend of worry. HMRC explanation was that client had a "temporary NI number" so no link to SA. Have asked them to issue explanation and apology to client - nothing yet.

To be fair it's the only one I've ever had.



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By M Shapland
15th Mar 2013 12:53

P800 T issued when client under self-assessment

Oh yes got sveral of those last year. The worse thing was they were incorrect and some showed a refund when none was due.


This arises because the self-assessment IT system and the PAYE IT system are not set up so if a taxpayer register for SA the PAYE system is not automatically updated with this information. I have been told that this has to be done manually!!!!

quite often this comes to light when I call HMRC to amend a client's tax code and I quote the UTR rather than NI number. Apparently the two systems run in parrallel but do not meet unless told to do so.


An area which could be be improved and save costs.....


why can't they address and correct problems instead of coming up with "dumb ideas" like closing tax enquiry offices?


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By pressco
15th Mar 2013 12:56

P800 Refunds

I got one last week.

Client had already received a £200 refund as shown on the SA Return.

Then the P800 arrives and she got another £900.

Fortunately she had saved the money in her ISA.

I have written to hmrc asking whether this is correct and if so to confirm it in writing as my client would be happy to keep the refund.

I am still waiting for a reply.


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By alexggibson
15th Mar 2013 13:06

Yes we've had the same problems.

HMRC are demanding money plus interest in every situation.  What are other people finding?

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By pauljohnston
15th Mar 2013 13:43

This has been happening for some

time now.  It is the turn of 2011-12 .

A copy is sent back to HMRC with a polite note indicating the error.  Never a thank you.  We also send the Taxpayer a copy.

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By K81
15th Mar 2013 13:48


a lot of the P800's are issued automatically by the computer system once it has received all of the information it is  expecting.


If the NINO's held on the PAYE system are not the same as that on the self-assessment record the systems will not match up.

This is more the fault of the computer programme not the HMRC staff.


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By Jacqui Brennan
15th Mar 2013 15:39

HMRC systems - NPS (PAYE) v SA

We have had a number of P800T forms for individuals within SA.  The main problem we find is first year the the person is within (or rejoins) SA.  The answers I have received depended on the knowledge/experience of the person dealing with my call. 

Over the last 12 months we have a number of clients who are affected by the issue "in reverse" so to speak.  In these cases the NPS system receives information from the SA system, following submission of a tax return and out pops an amended coding notice.  These have ranged from a significant amount of allowable loan interest, for investing in a totally unconnected partnership, to assumed state pension because the individual (who has deferred their state pension) is over state pension age.  The problem is the system is automatic so there is no "sense check" on any of the incorrect notices.

The biggest problem will be for anyone who does not have an agent; does not receive their copy of the coding notice or simply does not understand the system.  These people are ususally the within the low income bracket.

The government should have put support into the system for those less able before they steamrolled the "digital by default" system into place.


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By Shirley Martin
16th Mar 2013 18:10

SA indicator on NPS

SA and NPS are separate databases, with computerised processes in place to pass data between the two.

One of the processes is where NPS should be notified automatically when an SA record is set up/closed down. (SAM100090).  The process is supposed to set the SA indicator on the NPS record .  The purpose of the indicator is to tell NPS that a P800T is not required because the tax will be settled  through SA. (PAYE 93032)

The first cases of SA taxpayers getting refunds from NPS were reported as far back as December 2010 and was attributed to a reported broken link between SA and NPS.  I have never heard that the link has been fixed, which could be why M Shapland has been told that it has to be done manually.  News to me.

I have also never heard that HMRC are able to identify the affected cases.  This means that, in addition to sorting out any refund issues, when practitioners contact HMRC they will need to get the NPS record corrected so that the SA indicator is set.  Otherwise refunds could issued for future years as well.

Kind regards


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By Swedish Chef
19th Mar 2013 17:17

Was an ITR issued?

I've had a few of these but in each case, ITRs had not been formally issued - yet ones were still submitted online to get a refund that was due.

A helpful chap (yes they do still exist!) at HMRC said to me that there is some cross-checking, but the system looks at whether a Return has been issued, rather than submitted.

Now if I want to submit an "unsolicited" Return, I wait and get HMRC to issue one first.  Not had any problems since......

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