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Electric car charging

Not a tax/accounting question, just thought a few of you would know stuff

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Hi all

Given (new) petrol/diesel cars will apparently be banned in 10 years so everyone can get electric cars I have become curious.  What happens if you live somewhere without a drive/garage?

The only way I could charge my car, assuming I can even park it at my house, is if I ran a cable out my window and over 15 feet of garden and pavement.  It'd have to be elevated so no-one tripped over it.  That is not practical, and that is still an easier setup than a lot of places I have lived at (where there might not even be a parking space near the house full stop).

How would the likes of me (and huge chunks of the country) be expected to charge my car?  I realise banning new cars in 10 years means they will still be available to buy in about 30!

Replies (33)

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By SXGuy
18th Nov 2020 08:20

Welcome to the question of the decade that no one has an answer for.

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By Wanderer
18th Nov 2020 08:46

Some authorities allow cables across pathways if covered by cable protectors:-
https://www.hants.gov.uk/transport/ev-charging-points/ev-charging-guidance

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boxfile
By spilly
18th Nov 2020 09:19

I live in a densely populated city with a terrible parking problem, and most properties do not have driveways. There are double yellows outside my property so the nearest place I can park is on the opposite side of the road.
The council have installed a few on-street charging points but it will never be able to feasibly have enough of them to satisfy the city’s needs.
So no, I can’t see how petrol cars can be phased out in the next 10 years.

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By OldParkAcct
18th Nov 2020 09:33

If you do not have off street parking (at home or work) , you are limited at the moment in most areas to going to a car park or fuel station with a charger, but the options are growing. In the not too distant future include charging your car by connecting to lampposts (if they are fitted with LEDs they do not use all their current) and wirelessly by just parking or driving over certain road surfaces.
It will probably also result in many people in cities discovering that they do not actual need to own a car and that renting one for the when they do is an easier and cheaper alternative.

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Hallerud at Easter
By DJKL
18th Nov 2020 09:34

Up here installations are progressing slow but sure, to date two of our tenants have sought permission to install charging points and I expect this will continue to increase, the Council will also likely start a wider programme installing charging points through the City; it is somewhat academic for me, I have an older diesel which I think was originally planned to be banned/charged for by 2024 if taken into Edinburgh City Centre, however as the zones also impact older petrol cars I do expect to see more and more electric vehicles over the next few years.

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By bernard michael
18th Nov 2020 09:34

It's a cunning plan to reduce the number of cars and improve the economy in the short term. Very few people will want to buy a new car after 2030 as they will not be able to charge them. Therefore the economy will have a massive boost by the sale of cars prior to 2030 to continue to pay for the virus overspend

Or am I too cynical ??

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Replying to bernard michael:
Hallerud at Easter
By DJKL
18th Nov 2020 10:17

Yes it is, because the move away from diesel/petrol pre dates Covid, the only way your theory works is if Covid was planned. If Covid was planned we know our government was not involved as they are not competent enough to execute a secret cunning plan- unless of course their perceived lack of competence was itself part of the plan to make us believe they were not competent enough to have a cunning plan.

Where's David Icke when you need him.

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Replying to DJKL:
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By Tax Dragon
18th Nov 2020 10:49

DJKL wrote:

Where's David Icke when you need him.

Facebook, apparently.

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Replying to DJKL:
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By Mr_awol
18th Nov 2020 11:45

I still think the bringing forward of the prohibition on net petrol/derv only cars has legs. Yes it would have been a policy anyway, but wasn't that planned for about ten years later?

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By legerman
18th Nov 2020 09:35

Gradually I believe electric charging stations like these one will replace petrol stations.

https://www.ncl.ac.uk/press/articles/archive/2018/04/4mrapidchargingstat...

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Replying to legerman:
RLI
By lionofludesch
18th Nov 2020 09:45

So "rapid" equates to a range of 180 miles in 20 minutes.

As opposed to petrol's three or four hundred (at least) in two or three.

There are already less places to buy petrol than there were 100 years ago.

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Replying to lionofludesch:
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By Tax Dragon
18th Nov 2020 09:57

100 years ago, it took 20 minutes to fill your tank and you were then good for 180 miles.

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Replying to Tax Dragon:
RLI
By lionofludesch
18th Nov 2020 10:05

How long can it take to teem a few gallon cans into the tank ?

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Replying to lionofludesch:
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By Tax Dragon
18th Nov 2020 10:26

How big is your funnel?

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Replying to Tax Dragon:
Red Leader
By Red Leader
18th Nov 2020 10:34

Talking of filling up with petrol, in Cambodia you could buy plastic bottles of petrol from roadside stalls. I could never work out how they fitted into the marketplace because there were petrol stations as well. I think maybe I only saw the petrol stalls in countryside areas where there wasn't a petrol station network.

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By memyself-eye
18th Nov 2020 09:53

petrol stations and supermarket petrol sites will become charging stations, so you do as you do now, go and 'fill' up. For those with off street parking, an overnight charge will do the job as the average commute is way less than the range of even the smallest capacity electric car - and by 2030 they will have the same range as petrol models have now.
The bigger question is who would buy any petrol car in 5 years time? - ours is a 2015 model and I'm tempted just to hang on to it for (say) another 8 years.

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Replying to memyself-eye:
Hallerud at Easter
By DJKL
18th Nov 2020 10:23

More important is where I will get the juice for my 1987 Scimitar SS1600 as it is staying put, it may yet again be in pieces and rarely gets driven but I have now owned it too long to part with it.

Looks like we will soon be into the realms of Mad Max to keep a source of petrol.

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Replying to DJKL:
Quack
By Constantly Confused
18th Nov 2020 10:53

DJKL wrote:

More important is where I will get the juice for my 1987 Scimitar SS1600 as it is staying put, it may yet again be in pieces and rarely gets driven but I have now owned it too long to part with it.

Looks like we will soon be into the realms of Mad Max to keep a source of petrol.

Good point, does that mean I won't be getting another motorbike when I'm older... Even if they are electric by then, it won't be the same!

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Replying to memyself-eye:
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By meadowsaw227
18th Nov 2020 10:40

I usually change both cars every 2 to 3 years, so hopefully there will be some bargains to be had ! .

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Replying to meadowsaw227:
Hallerud at Easter
By DJKL
18th Nov 2020 11:28

I am the opposite, I run them until they drop (or become uneconomic to repair).

Our Merc 300 reached 18 years and circa 250k miles before its box went and consigned it to the great scrapyard in the sky (government scrappage scheme), it was traded in 2009 for a Fiat 500 which still takes my other half to and from work having only done 40k miles from new. Mine these days is a 2011 Mini Countryman AWD with only 47k on the clock that has hardly moved since March. (Though I am popping into office later today so it will clock up 1.5 miles. Since March I have only had to fill its tank once and that looks like it will see me through until March 2021)

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Replying to memyself-eye:
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By Mr_awol
18th Nov 2020 11:53

memyself-eye wrote:

The bigger question is who would buy any petrol car in 5 years time? - ours is a 2015 model and I'm tempted just to hang on to it for (say) another 8 years.

It depends on how easily manufacturers get around the new legislation.

Late model petrol vehicles could appreciate if the demand remains but there is no supply. Or imports may become popular.

Utimately though as the legislation will permit 'some hybrids' it might be that i can still buy a 3l v6 with a secondary electric powertrain that can just about limp me over the 25 mile (or whatever it becomes) threshold for calling it a Hybrid.

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Replying to memyself-eye:
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By the_fishmonger
19th Nov 2020 11:34

memyself-eye wrote:

petrol stations and supermarket petrol sites will become charging stations, so you do as you do now, go and 'fill' up.

Most non-supermarket & independent fuel station forecourts have space for 6 to 12 cars max and the average fuel up probably takes under 5 minutes occupancy time. It's just about viable with that sort of churn in pump slot usage.

Even with the superfast chargers, occupancy time will be considerably longer and you need to be able to get cars in/out around each other, so there'll be little space saving from removal of fossil fuel delivery systems.

The cost per charge would presumably reflect this extra occupancy time. Would the charge up stations also have to provide other services to keep people amused or toilets, etc.? I'm not sure the majority of those sites would continue to be viable without them.

On the other hand supermarkets are likely do away with the fuelling stations (rent the space to a Costa/Nero/Starbucks) and simply install dozens of charging points in the main car parks. For most the weekly shop takes ~1hr. Plenty of time to 'fill up' and the space was going to be occupied anyway. Add to that, most drivers are unlikely to sit there while it charges, so they're likely to wander into the shop and buy more.

We'll also see charging points spring up in town centre car parks and smaller retailers where they can. Again encouraging additional purchases 'while you wait' and also giving a bigger return on the car parking places.

Will people then need charging points at home?

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By Bob Loblaw
18th Nov 2020 10:39

Electric cars are a scam. It's designed so that the government and other "higher ups" won't be questioned when they roll out the mast beacons that radiate electric waves. The premise is that they'll charge your care remotely without you needing to plug in, but it's actually proven on Facebook that the level of electricity they'll transmit will be enough to cause mass sterilisation. Population control at that click of a button. People will only catch on when it's too late (as the sheeple always do) and by then every cul-de-sac in the country will be fitted with beacons that dish out enough volts to fry any true patriot who speaks out to a crisp.

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Replying to Bob Loblaw:
RLI
By lionofludesch
18th Nov 2020 10:42

Bob Loblaw wrote:

Electric cars are a scam. It's designed so that the government and other "higher ups" won't be questioned when they roll out the mast beacons that radiate electric waves. The premise is that they'll charge your care remotely without you needing to plug in, but it's actually proven on Facebook that the level of electricity they'll transmit will be enough to cause mass sterilisation. Population control at that click of a button. People will only catch on when it's too late (as the sheeple always do) and by then every cul-de-sac in the country will be fitted with beacons that dish out enough volts to fry any true patriot who speaks out to a crisp.

Proven on Facebook ? Impressive.

If only Tesla hadn't been assassinated ......

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Replying to Bob Loblaw:
Hallerud at Easter
By DJKL
18th Nov 2020 11:30

You have got it all wrong, they are controlling all of you through your mobile phones.

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By Christmas Turkey
18th Nov 2020 10:54

Eco fantasy which will destroy the nation.
Electric cars use on average 8 batteries, these have an average lifespan of 5 years, there are 37 million cars on the road, so that is an average of 59 million batteries being scrapped every year. Parts of the batteries can be recycled, but, there will be a huge amount of non recyclable heavy metals.
Then at 6pm every day people will return from the office, plug in their cars, and the National Grid will go into meltdown.
Within years there will be 37 million scrap petrol cars littering the country.
HGVs simply will not operate on electric motors as they lack the power to pull a 40 ton vehicle.

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By Tax Dragon
18th Nov 2020 11:07

I have a strange feeling that Ruddles is not far from this thread.

Must be all that electricity in the ether.

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Replying to Tax Dragon:
Hallerud at Easter
By DJKL
18th Nov 2020 11:32

The Force is strong with this one.

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By Dougj
18th Nov 2020 11:49

I think a lot will change in the next 10 years, with better cars, longer range, better batteries and better charging solutions. Will it change enough? Who knows, but government will need to get to work now to have a hope. It feels like they've a long time to work on it, but considering how they deal with other big issues like Covid and Brexit I'm not too sure we'll be ready. Maybe they'll appoint Chris Grayling to look after it...

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Replying to Dougj:
Hallerud at Easter
By DJKL
18th Nov 2020 12:16

Once they all get a post Brexit trade deal (in the year 2030) all the new lorry parks can then be converted to charging stations for electric cars. There is a slight problem that they are not in the right place for the population to park up overnight, maybe we solve that with a high speed train from London to the carparks so people can pick up their out of town parked cars.

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By Paul D Utherone
18th Nov 2020 16:01

Well they plan to upgrade the charging network and fast chargers are becoming available at more places now - a weekend in Devon a month or so ago was interesting because in that neck of the woods chargers are almost as rare as rocking horse poo but thankfully the guest house had one. So you may find more becoming available on street built into lampposts.

There are now vehicles in China where the battery is easily & automatically interchangeable. One drives to a charging station where your depleted battery is removed and taken away to charge, being replaced with a fully charged battery in (IIRC) under 15 minutes. The process is all automated.

If you work in an office (should we ever get back to that again) then maybe consider taking a grant and enhanced reliefs to install a charge point at the office, and leave the car on charge while you're sat at your desk in the day. That would work for me if we were not working from home at present, and I would only need to charge up about once a week on the usual commuting week.

A lot of supermarkets have charge points in the carpark. They may not be the superfast chargers presently, but plugging in while you do your weekly shop will get you something by way of top up while you shop.

I have gone fully electric this year, and admittedly I do have a drive and charger, but before lockdown the plan had been to charge once or twice a week whilst at the office, and never need to use the home charger. That would have worked for >90% on my annual mileage.

It should also be added that
- Battery technology is getting much better and life cycles are proving to be much longer than expected a few years back.
- There's less moving engine parts, so servicing is cheaper and not as frequent.
- They may currently be more expensive than the ICE equivalent, but even those prices are dropping closer to parity
- Whilst you may need to change your driving style somewhat, the refuelling 'cycle' is different. You most probably don't do the petrol/diesel ' run it to the empty light, then a little more before filling the tank'. More likely, and depending on electric range and normal daily journeys you might only top up every few days, so that you always have full range available, and program it to low electricity rates in the middle of the night, or maybe even draw from battery storage at home that is charged from solar, or low night rates

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Replying to Paul D Utherone:
Hallerud at Easter
By DJKL
19th Nov 2020 11:43

If you are a partnership or sole trader can you stick a sub meter on the charging point so that you know what part of the office electric bill juiced the car and will accordingly then need apportioned between business and private use?

Will in future HMRC investigate if a business has charging points used by staff within their electricity costs?

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Replying to DJKL:
By Paul D Utherone
19th Nov 2020 12:55

DJKL wrote:

If you are a partnership or sole trader can you stick a sub meter on the charging point so that you know what part of the office electric bill juiced the car and will accordingly then need apportioned between business and private use?

Will in future HMRC investigate if a business has charging points used by staff within their electricity costs?


As it stands for the latter FA 2019 s8 introduced ITEPA s237A and an exemption " in respect of the provision, at or near an employee's workplace, of facilities for charging a battery of a vehicle used by the employee (including a vehicle used by the employee as a passenger)."

As for private use adjustments for sole traders & partnerships, the cost of charging an EV is relatively small. For my EV to do a 100% charge and get 280 miles range is roughly £10, but depending how you manage the cycle you might only be doing a 20-30% top up that would be around £2-3

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