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ESC A19

ESC A19

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I am doing some voluntary work for the elderly (TOPS if anyone is familiar). Anyway, a lady who retired in 09/10 has now received tax underpayment notices in respect of the tax years 08/09 and 09/10. These tax underpayments amount to just over £8,000 and they arose because HMRC had operated a BR code (incorrectly) on her employment for both years.

I wrote to HMRC and requested that these underpayments be cancelled under ESC A19 on the provision that HMRC had received a copy of her P60 & P11D in 07/08 and 08/09 (from the same employer) showing that she clearly had income taxable at 40% in both years together with small BIK's and so HMRC had failed to use this information correctly. I pointed out that details of the P60 would have been made available to HMRC by 19 May 2008 & 2009 and so correct tax codes should have been operated accordingly for 2008/09 and 2009/10 (i.e. personal allowances and code restrictions should have been allocated against employment income and a D0 tax code should have been operated on the Teachers pension that she also has).

Anyway, HMRC have responded saying that they do not believe ESC A19 applies and they have not failed to make timely use of certain information and that she should have realised the code was wrong....

I may just have a bias opinion but this seems like total rubbish to me!? How can HMRC expect every Joe Bloggs to understand about tax codes and know when they are wrong - this lady is over 70 years old!

I'd appreciate any other comments or advice how best to proceed...

Replies (59)

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Me!
By nigelburge
09th Aug 2012 16:44

Have a lookat previous threads on this

There has been a lot of discussion in the last few weeks.

Basically, HMRC will always refuse first time and you just have to keep going - they usually give way in the end.

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By K81
09th Aug 2012 16:53

HMRC will refuse any claims based on P14 or P11D details. There is new legislation currently proposed which would change this.

 

If your client completed a P161 when she retired this will be accepted under ESC A19.

 

 

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Replying to Portia Nina Levin:
Me!
By nigelburge
09th Aug 2012 17:02

"HMRC will refuse any claims based on P14 or P11D details." BUT.

K81 wrote:

HMRC will refuse any claims based on P14 or P11D details. 

That does not mean that they won't pay out in the end. They always seem to refuse the claim in the first instance.

I believe that the Adjudicator/Ombudsman would give this silly line of argument very short shrift (since it is clearly indefensible) and I also believe that HMRC know that full well which is why you just have to persevere.

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Time for change
By Time for change
09th Aug 2012 16:55

We've all had ESC A19 issues

in some form or another, over the last few years.

There were comments as recently as yesterday. I had a case, where the underpayment was approaching £9,000 and, as soon as I'd obtained evidence from a third party, HMRC "conveniently" gave way and accepted that they had been given the necessary information and had simply not acted upon it.

As nigelburge says above, you just have to keep going.

One thing which doesn't get much mention these days, is the question of "additional costs".

After I'd resolved my case, my client paid me and I put my charges for reimbursement to HMRC, which they declined to pay. After a further interchange of correspondence I put my case to the Adjudicator's Office. That was last September (2011) and, almost 1 year later, the case still awaits a decision!

Apparently, the Adjudicator's Office is overwhelmed with complaints. Now, does that surprise you?

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By codling
09th Aug 2012 17:07

ESC A19

HMRC seem to be taking rather a tough line on these claims. You are supposed to receive a proper reason for any decision and I am betting that you have only had the standard decision that ESC A19 does not apply with a very wishy washy reason for it.

You need to ask for this decision to be reviewed and you also need to again spell out the sequence of events leading to the underpayment and ask them to spell out in graphic detail as to why they believe that they have not failed to act on information when it is pretty clear from what you say that this is the case.

There have also been clear breaches of the Taxpayers Charter as HMRC has failed to use information provided which suggests that HMRC has not ensured that the client's tax affairs have been dealt with by someone with the correct level of experience. HMRC has also failed to process information given as quickly and accurately as possible and to put right errors as soon as they can. Throw this into the equation.

Why would a lay person realise that the code was wrong? For HMRC to suggest otherwise must mean that HMRC do not believe your client. This is also very much contrary to the Taxpayers Charter which states that your client will be treated as honest unless HMRC have a good reason not to do so. HMRC has put forward no such good reasons based on your posting.

I have a similar set of correspondence on the go which is now the subject of a formal complaint over HMRC behaviour and lack of response on several occasions to detailed questions. In my case HMRC admitted in writing not making timely use of information in correspondence and have now tried to back track on this.

Continue the fight - I know I will be!!  

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By girlofwight
09th Aug 2012 17:15

Hello to a fellow Top adviser then!  Just taking a break from catching up on some Top case work this afternoon.

I'd echo others views on ESC A19 - HMRCs stance is plain silly, but you will need two or three attempts to get them to see sense.  They claim that P60s aren't relevant information for A19 as they don't routinely process them. 

That begs question (a) what they do with them is their business, as far as I am concerned they have had them and they contain relevant information and (b) if they don't process them, where do P800s and revised codes generate from?

My experience is after a few letters they back down without answering the policy question.

Incidentally P46s count as "information" for the proposed revised ESC A19 - that was another job today, a handful of consultation replies - begs the question if a P60 is information going forward, why not in the past.  Of course their answer will be we didn't have the IT to process them before, to which the response is "thats your problem"

Happy days.

 

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Me!
By nigelburge
09th Aug 2012 17:17

Taxpayers Charter?

Come on - you're avin' a larf...............

Were there ever words so hopefully written with so much expectation just to be TOTALLY ignored by HMRC?

 

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Replying to petersaxton:
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By codling
13th Aug 2012 17:30

Taxpayers Charter

David Hartnett had a fanfare about the taxpayers charter some time ago when the new one was rolled out and said all of HMRC were fully aware of it but you are right - it does get ignored. It is up to you and I to bang on about it so that it is pushed in the faces of the many HMRC's who do ignore, who have forgotten about it or who simply do not know of its existance.

There was a charter group set up at the time to monitor progress and any HMRC failings in adhering to the charter should be reported so that Hartnett's successor can see how HMRC are failing to meet its objectives. It is there in black and white (or should I say nice pastel colours) so we need to use it as another weapon in the uneven fight we have. 

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By mattrobbo
09th Aug 2012 17:28

Thanks for the input everyone. It looks like perseverance is the key. It could be a long road ahead!

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By Tipp21
10th Aug 2012 08:07

Underpayment

 I am currenty in the same boat, I had a full time job  and took a part time job 2003, was not issued with a p46 and never heard of one until 2010 I got a tax bill of 7,000pounds. I am still fighting this, it was down to the employer of the part time job I am in this mess. I told them I could not do day only nights and weekends but because employers are only obliged to keep records of employers for 3 years Employer error can not be established. I did have accountants working on this for me but they have said I do not stand a chance in winning this so gave up after the conclusion of the first complaint letter. I am now fighting this myself as I was 100per cent certain my tax affairs were in order, why would anyone stay in part time work knowing they were doing something wrong just to get a 7,000pound tax bill at the end of it, I dont think so.......I have written my second letter so waiting for a reply from this, to all who are fighting cases good luck, and keep up the fight.

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Replying to Cambridge Business:
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By bernard michael
10th Aug 2012 09:04

Just curious are you an

Breda - Just curious are you an accountant?

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Replying to tom123:
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By Tipp21
10th Aug 2012 09:06

No, Telephonist.
 

No, Telephonist.

 

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Replying to Euan MacLennan:
Me!
By nigelburge
10th Aug 2012 09:33

@Tipp21

So sorry that your previous accountants just gave up. You always get turned down by HMRC a few times first.

You may well find one who will take this on for a fixed fee and go all the way if necessary to the Adjudicator and Ombudsman.

Good luck.

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Replying to Tom 7000:
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By Tipp21
10th Aug 2012 10:04

 thats where I am heading now

 thats where I am heading now myself, as far as im concerned I have done nothing wrong. Paid a fixed fee of 1,200 to last accountannts so not again.

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Replying to Cambridge Business:
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By GQbus
13th Aug 2012 12:41

Underpayment

jHi Tipp,

Just wondered how far back HMRC have gone with the underpayment notices as there is a time limit for them to formalise the underpayment; for example an underpayment arising in tax year 2005/6 would need to be formalised by 5/4/10. Also, if your annual income is low then I believe TaxAid will fight ESC A19 cases for you at no cost - their website shows the eligibility criteria

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Time for change
By Time for change
10th Aug 2012 11:04

Tipp21

As I mentioned above, I have a case with The Adjudicator's Office at the moment -it's been there since last September. The specific complaint is re additional costs and, not with any related ESC A19 issues.

Before you take the case to the Adjudicator, why not consider speaking or meeting with your local MP? If you take the case to the Adjudicator first, you can't then involve your MP until the case has been resolved. I speak from practical experience here -unfortunately.

This is such a frustrating area of taxpayers' dealings with HMRC, we really ought to consider a broad brush approach from Aweb members, direct to the Treasury? Any thoughts here?

Edit PS -keep your fixed fee receipt. When this is resolved, at some point in the future, you may be able to recover those "additional costs".

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Replying to shaun king:
Me!
By nigelburge
10th Aug 2012 11:13

Yes but..............

Time for change wrote:

If you take the case to the Adjudicator first, you can't then involve your MP until the case has been resolved. I speak from practical experience here -unfortunately.

If you involve your MP first - and it goes to the Parliamentary Ombudsman, then you can't use the Adjudicator AT ALL!!

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Time for change
By Time for change
10th Aug 2012 11:28

Thanks for that nigelburge

wasn't aware of that situation.

What a complete and utter shambles this all is???

Having waited over 6 months for the Adjudicator's Office to start to deal with my case, my client decided he would also approach his MP. The MP listened to the background and wrote to HMRC. He received a reply that, because I'd placed the case before the Adjudicator's Office, they were unable to respond to him!

It all seems like a typical "catch 22" situation to me and brings no feeling of respect for any of these Government departments. Talk about unfit for purpose?

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By Tipp21
10th Aug 2012 11:36

2nd letter

 

I will await what they say from this second letter, then I will take it from there. thanks for all your responces.

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By Tipp21
10th Aug 2012 11:40

Has anyone heard of the underpayment support help line,

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Replying to zebaa:
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By Shirley Martin
11th Aug 2012 20:45

Is it the HMRC Underpayment Support Team?

@ Tipp21

I am not aware of an underpayment support helpline but, after all the problems with unexpected tax demands in 2010, HMRC did set up an Underpayment Support Team.  This team did not have anything to do with reducing people's tax bills.  Their job was to agree a way of scheduling the payment of the tax bill over a period of up to three years.

The HMRC website still has a section on it here (http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/p800/paye-tax-calcs.htm) where it says "If paying the amount over a year would cause financial difficulty please contact HMRC on Tel 0845 3000 627 to discuss payment options, they may be able to spread the payments over two or three years."  This phone number is their general one and so, if you do still think it is worth calling them, be prepared to wait.

Kind regards

Shirley

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By Tipp21
13th Aug 2012 08:45

I have been issued with an underpayment of 7,000 pounds. I did not know about this bill until 2010. HMRC have added interest on the underpayments to this day even though I did not know I owed anything until 2010, are they allowed to do that?

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Time for change
By Time for change
13th Aug 2012 09:54

The case which I'm dealing with

initially had an underpayment, across 3 tax years, of around £8,200..

The underpayment(s) were notified by way of tax calculations and, were issued in 2011. There was no interest included in any of the calculations.

I can only beg the question, therefore, has the interest been added subsequent to the initial issue of the underpayments or, was the interest always present? Another issue we seem to have with HMRC is the lack of consistency, therefore my enquiry.

Tipp 21 -you really must let us know the outcome of your "second" letter to HMRC. I'm sure one of us on here, would be able to assist you, if it became necessary.Certainly, I would be prepared to put myself in the frame, so to speak, obviously on a voluntary basis.

Personal message me, if that suggestion appeals.

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By codling
13th Aug 2012 11:10

ESC A19

You also need to be aware of the underhand tricks that HMRC may use. A case I have on the go involves the taxpayer asking legitimate questions of HMRC regarding how the underpayment arose. He received a response to say that his letter was under consideration but in the meantime he received 2 calls from HMRC asking whether he was prepared to pay the underpayment. Quite rightly he said "no, not until my questions had been answered."

Because he had not agreed to pay when HMRC phoned him and even though his questions had not been answered, SA Returns for the 3 years concerned were issued with a letter confirming that these had been issued with the sole purpose of bringing the tax into charge and with the usual threats regarding late filing penalties and interest.

At this point I was brought in and despite further complaint type letters from both myself and the taxpayer with very detailed arguments and questions, no answers have been forthcoming and the only response was to say once again that ESC A19 did not apply with no proper reasoning. This was after HMRC supposedly lost 2 of my letters

In the meantime the Returns are late and a late filing penalty notice was issued for 2011 even though a specific request was made at the outset for suspension of any type of action pending HMRC replying in full to the questions raised.

As mentioined in my earlier post this is now the subject of a formal complaint concerning lack of care by HMRC and their clear bully boy tactics being used. The complaint was made on 22 July but (not unexpectedly) no response received to date.

My AAM will be the next port of call if a suitable response is not received within the next few days.

 

 

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By PaisleiW-G
13th Aug 2012 12:24

Keep appealing it does work eventually! I have had a no on a number of occasions but kept appealing and eventually they overturned and allowed ESC A19

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By Tipp21
13th Aug 2012 12:30

 

 

Thank you time for change. will let everyone know how i get on. Like above I had accountant  and thought all interest and penalties would be suspended while they investigated . How can HMRC justify putting interest on an underpayment and the person does not even know that they have a bill until years later.

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By Tipp21
13th Aug 2012 13:42

Hi GQbus,

 

2004-2009. they have balanced as nil 2004 but would 2005 be balanced as nil as well as I did not get the bill until january 2010 and was not formalised until may 2010.I would not get tax aid.  I did pay a fixed fee to accountants who told me after they got the letter back after the first complaint that I could not win this and they would go no further with it. I was very disappointed but can not let it fall just there so I wrote the second letter of complaint myself and am awaiting an reply from that. I had a full time job then got a part time job and the employer did not issue me with a p46. The first time I heard of a p46 was when I got the bill from hmrc in 2010, the lady told me I should have been issued with one. I worked part time there for 7 years so imagine my shock when the bill arrived. I did not question that my tax was not right as i got wage slips with tax and ni taken off from the part time job. I would not have stayed in a job for seven years if i thought something was wrong. Anyway will fight on and see what happens.

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By David C Moore
13th Aug 2012 13:51

Had the very same situation

Had this last year, Told them there letter was inconclusive, no reason for rejection, down loaded ECS19 from HMRC website. Went through it point by point with a copy attached.

HMRC agreed it was covered.

I now send this download everytime. No standard reply comes my way again.

Hit them with the facts 1st time and their own download, no defence. Never sent more than one letter in the last 12 months and never failed on my clients behalf yet.

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By matcarpet
13th Aug 2012 14:56

For Tipp21

The first thing you need to establish is why the underpayment has arisen. It sounds like in your case the P46 procedure has failed. You are not alone we have 2000 cases at Tax Help (TOPS). When the P46 procedure fails it is for 3 main reasons. 1, the employer has failed to operate PAYE regs correctly, Employer error (Reg72). 2, HMRC have failed to use the information provided to them, ESC A19 may apply. and 3, the wrong box has been ticked on the P46 by the employee, rare but does happen and not much can be done.

Once you have the reason you can construct your letter. In your case it sounds like there is no evidence.  We say that if HMRC do not have the information it is pointing to the employer not to have supplied it. It is the employers responsibility to make sure this form goes to HMRC. If neither have any proof then the benefit of doubt should be awarded to the taxpayer. We see many versions where HMRC assume something has happened but this is not acceptable. In fact we see all sorts of excuses as to why its not HMRC's or the employers fault, most of them can be quashed.

Keep going, good luck and call Tax Help if you need more guidance 

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By Tipp21
13th Aug 2012 15:49

I will keep going, and thanks to all for all your advice and help.

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By M Shapland
14th Aug 2012 08:53

ESC A19 saga continues...

wel this is the second rejection I have had for the current case:-

1. They admit they got it wron and did not use the info on P46 cars and P11D

2. they are still saying that as they miss the fuel benefit and BIK re car replaced during the year the taxpayer should have known is Tax code was wrong as he went from a K code to .. L code.

3. He should have noticed and contacting them to tell them there was a problem

To cap it all they are saying that as ESC A19 does not apply they can go back 4 years.

I am really really gettinig fed up with their arogance and complete lack to respect for the tax payers and they dare to call them customers.. I would not dream of treating customers in that fashion.. I'd get my P45 pretty quick if I did..

I am now going for the complaint route...

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Replying to DJKL:
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By ACDWebb
14th Aug 2012 09:42

K to L

M Shapland wrote:

wel this is the second rejection I have had for the current case:-

1. They admit they got it wron and did not use the info on P46 cars and P11D

2. they are still saying that as they miss the fuel benefit and BIK re car replaced during the year the taxpayer should have known is Tax code was wrong as he went from a K code to .. L code.

3. He should have noticed and contacting them to tell them there was a problem

To cap it all they are saying that as ESC A19 does not apply they can go back 4 years.

I am really really gettinig fed up with their arogance and complete lack to respect for the tax payers and they dare to call them customers.. I would not dream of treating customers in that fashion.. I'd get my P45 pretty quick if I did..

I am now going for the complaint route...

... would presumably have thrown up a repayment & much less tax deducted going forwards, which might have alerted the taxpayer to there being a problem. Then again failing to use the P11D does tend to swing it back the other way
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Replying to DJKL:
Me!
By nigelburge
14th Aug 2012 10:29

"Softly, softly, catchee monkey"

M Shapland wrote:

3. He should have noticed and contacting them to tell them there was a problem

I am now going for the complaint route...

 

Two points:-

 

1   Whether your client "should have noticed" will depend on his level of intelligence to put it bluntly. If he is a high court judge then yes, he should. If he is an average window cleaner, then no, of course he won't have a clue.

This may or may not help you depending on your client!

 

2   Be sure to tell them that you are going to refer this to the Adjudicator and then, if necessary the Ombudsman. Give them a time limit to respond before you formally go down the complaint route.and try and get the officer(s) names who have dealt with this. They do have to tell you this although they hate it.

"Softly, softly, catchee monkey"

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By Tipp21
14th Aug 2012 11:16

 

 

When you get a reasponce from your second letter that you are not happy with, do you then refer to an Adjudicator .

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Time for change
By Time for change
14th Aug 2012 12:00

You can find out the whole

picture here (hopefully);-

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/complaints-appeals/how-to-complain/make-complaint.htm

One tip I would provide; there's nothing to stop you having a meeting with your MP and discussing your case generally. Your MP can directly write to HMRC, seeking a further explanation and, from my experience, MP's are still treated with respect (unlike the rest of us). At this stage the Parliamentary Ombudsman is well down the road, in my view.

For my money, I would await the second response, arrange to see my MP and see what the situation is then. It may be that you would be well advised to go to The Adjudicator's Office at that point BUT, beware, the delays there are horrendous. The case which I placed with them, last September, is no further forward, in real terms and the Adjudicator is still reviewing evidence provided by both sides.

 

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By pengelly
14th Aug 2012 14:15

Taxpayer charter

Re nigelburge comment - Whether your client "should have noticed" will depend on his level of intelligence to put it bluntly. If he is a high court judge then yes, he should. If he is an average window cleaner, then no, of course he won't have a clue.

This may or may not help you depending on your client! 

Is it right that an intelligent/well educated person should be dealt with more harshly than a less intelligent/educated person?  Just a thought.

 

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By AntonyScott
17th Aug 2012 11:10

Your Charter!

I have an ongoing personal case I thought I’d share.

Underpayment of around £9k over 2008-09, 2009-10.

The benefit was for accommodation, I had never received a bik before so was uncertain what the implications were. I called HMRC early 2008 telling them I had a bik and asking what steps I needed to take ie fill out a tax return...I was told that my employer would send the information P11D and they would work out if any tax was owing. I left it at that. Two years later they code me correctly and ask for underpayment.

They have already admitted not using the information – It seems they have trouble with the belief test.

As has already been pointed out.

Your Charter says:

Unless we have a good reason not to, we will:

Treat you as honest

Presume you are telling us the truth.

 They have rejected my last two letters effectively calling me a liar. The truth is I believed my tax affairs were in order I had no reason to suspect HMRC had not acted on the information received from my employer therefore it was reasonable for me to believe that all was OK.

The latest letter rejecting my claim.

Whilst we did not act on the P11D information and code out the benefit for the years 2008-09 and 2009-10 at the same time you were in receipt of your copies of the P11D. Therefore you were aware that you were in receipt of this taxable income and the tax was due on it. Please note that it was your responsibility to contact HMRC if you had not received a notice of coding. Incorporating this benefit as you had not heard from us.

Taxpayers are expected to take reasonable steps to ensure their tax affairs are in order. In considering the reasonable belief test, we therefore look at what information was available to taxpayer, and whether, if he or she had taken all reasonable steps to ensure his or her tax affairs were in order, it would be reasonable for him or her to believe that they were.

As I explained we do not believe that you could have reasonably believed your tax affairs were in order and we cannot agree that we should give up the additional tax due.

 

It took 12 weeks for them to respond. My last letter has pointed out Your Charter and mentioned that if they fail this claim I will be taking it to the Adjudicator.

 

Antony 

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Replying to Ruddles:
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By mattharrop
26th Oct 2012 17:41

Outcome

How did you get on Anthony - any update?

 

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By Tipp21
17th Aug 2012 12:13

Exceptional Circumstances

In exceptional circumstances, arrears notified less than 12 months after the end of the relevant tax year may be considered where both of the following apply:
•HMRC failed more than once to make proper use of information received about a source of income
•HMRC allowed tax arrears to build up over two whole tax years in succession - so at least two tax year underpayments are due

Thats from the esc a19 concession.

 

Appeal again because they condradict what there own rules are.....

I am awaiting a reply from a second letter too. You can now take this to an adjudicator and an Independant person will look at your case.Good Luck...

 

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By Tipp21
17th Aug 2012 12:18

The Adjudicator

 

If you remain unhappy, you can ask the Adjudicator to look into your complaint. The Adjudicator is a fair and unbiased referee, and the service is free. The Adjudicator will only look at your complaint after it has been considered by HMRC.

Visit the Adjudicator's website (Opens new window)

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By paddymillard
17th Aug 2012 12:32

ESC A19

Tipp21, not  quite right on the exceptional circumstances.  You state that "arrears........may be considered where both of the following apply."  That is indeed how HMRC would like to interpret it but in fact there is no "and" between the two bullets and it is sufficient that either of the two apply.  There is no logical connection between the bullets.  Vigilant readers will have noticed HMRC's rather clumsy attempt to insert an "and" in the preamble to their condoc on rewriting ESC A19, but give the game away by printing the correct existing version underneath without the "and."

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By Tipp21
17th Aug 2012 18:36

can hmrc act on this

 

so i owe 7,000 to hmrc from 2005-2009. i took a part time job while in full time employment. my employer of the part time job did not issue a p46. He died in 2006 and his newphew took over the business. he also did not issue me with a p46. the first letter stated from the complaints handler as no p46 was located and employers are only allowed to keep records for 3 years then the payment lies with me. I am wondering as someone mentioned this today because the first employer died there is no evidence from him, as he has died can hmrc still lie blame with me.i hope this maked sence, any advice would be greatly recieved. Would anyone know if theres any where in the hmrc rule book "where two employers in the same job fail to give you a p46" ????

 

 

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By paddymillard
18th Aug 2012 12:51

Can HMRC act on this

Tipp21,

As matcarpet said in her comment on Monday, feel free to call Tax Help to discuss on 0845 610 3321.  I obviously do not know your age or income, but you will certainly get some sort of guidance from a charity which regrettably has accumulated a wealth of experience in fighting ESC A10/Reg72 cases, not to mention an excellent success rate - 1160 remissions of tax out of the last 1200 cases handled.

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By CathyH
23rd Sep 2012 22:54

ESC A119 rejected twice
My husband has a local government job and a police pension. When he first retired from the police he did not realise that he had to notify HMRC of his job and pension; he got hit for a lot of underpayment which was taken over a couple of years through tax on his pension. HMRC are aware of both sources of income (local gov job was his second after leaving police). Last Feb we received a P800 stating that money owed was 2008-9 £1474; 2009-10 £2411; in Feb 2012, P800 showed 2010-11 £3496 owed, then July 2012, P800 2011-12 £3809.
Tax code pension Jan 2010 was 647L, feb 2010 K64; tax code local gov job Jan 2010 was DO, Feb 2010 was BR.
ESC A119 has been rejected twice - P14 does not have a direct impact on PAYE code plus 'it is your responsibility to make sure your tax affairs are in order'.
I think we have grounds for further appeal and would be grateful for any suggestions.
Thanks

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By paddymillard
24th Sep 2012 08:30

A19 rejected twice

Cathy,

Your husband didn't have to notify HMRC of his job and pension.  That was the employer's and pension provider's job.  His responsibility stopped at ticking the correct box on the P46 - it is up to the income provider to send notification to HMRC.  If he ticked the right box on the local govt P46 (he doesn't do anything about the pension one), then either the employer/pension provider has failed to send it in or HMRC have failed to do anything about them.

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By CathyH
24th Sep 2012 10:17

A119 rejected twice

Thanks for the reply. The man sounded very nice when he explained how it was our fault!!!! That back tax has been cleared, the current problem is because my husband has not paid enough tax on a rolling programme. My argument is that they did not contact him early enough and that we had written/spoken in 2010 which is why tax codes were changed.

I am going to appeal the decision and am checking if there is anything I should quote or do.

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By paddymillard
25th Sep 2012 07:56

A19 rejected twice

Cathy,

Contact me via the number given to Tipp21 immedieately above your first comment and I will talk it through with you (pro bono).

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By CathyH
25th Sep 2012 10:35

A19 rejected twice
Hi, thanks for the offer,the number given is not recognised, could you please check it?
Thank you

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By paddymillard
26th Sep 2012 08:57

Wrong number

I grovel!  How could I of all people get the number wrong? 0845 601 3321

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By mattharrop
26th Oct 2012 17:54

Had demand for £6000 for 2007

Had demand for £6000 for 2007-08 / 08-09 / 09-10 tax years

Each year HMRC had a P11D, each year they have an excuse why they failed to use the information to calculate the tax correctly.  

First time my ESC A19 was rejected as 'they had no record of any information which they failed to use'.  I then managed to get back copies of my P11Ds and sent them back to HMRC!

They then rejected ESC A19 again as 'they accept they had the information, but I should have known my tax code was wrong and failed to tell them'... so a completely different reason!
 

I wrote to this and was handled by Complaints team (although i didn't ask for it to be), and have now had more detailed letter for each tax year explaining how it happened that the P11D information wasn't used correctly - for one year in particular they claim it's due to me moving jobs just as a revised tax code was issued so it didn't quite hit my P45 in time so my new employer kept using my existing code, and their system failed to spot the incorrect code was being used by my new employer but I 'should have realised this and told them'
 

For 07-08 they have sent me a SA form and told me to complete it, with penalty if i don't - I wrote to ask for this to be put on hold whilst we debate the ESC A19 validity but no response. For the other years they want to collect via PAYE but having originally said on their very first letter they could take payment over 3 years they have now said nothing about this in the last letter

 

Not sure where this leaves me - they clearly had information and failed to act on it in multiple years. It may be it's 'unlucky' timing in at least one instance but the system failed to spot this for as many as 3 years since then.

Every letter I've written (I'm now on #5) has been handled by a different person and taken about 8 weeks for them to respond to so we're now 18 months later and I still don't feel all the questions have totally been answered...

 

Any tips on where to go from here?  I think it has to be a complaint against the charter for unfair treatment they originally changed their original reasoning why ESC A19 doesn't apply and have now apologised for delays in correspondence, unclear reasoning, and failure of their IT system, but still want 100% of what they claim I owe?

As to the 07-08 SA return I've been sent - I have no other income for that year, they have all the documentation they need of my P60 and P11D, why the hell do I have to complete these details on a form and self-declare my tax for that year and pay any balance immediately (as it would be technically overdue) that they failed to take via PAYE at the time even though they had the information, and have had it for 5 years since? That can't be right?
 

Thanks all!

 

 

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