The EU referendum vote is fast approaching. As Politicians and businesses pick their side, AccountingWEB is keen to track how our members are feeling about the vote.
To let us know how you’re currently voting, we have set up a poll.
So, which way are you voting?
Replies (186)
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Immigration
Not read through the full thread, but one point which has been missed by both campaigns is the mass influx we will have of the expat Brits coming back from Spain.
They will come back in droves due to the Inheritance Tax implications for non EC residents.
Secondly, and controversially - I believe we have the voting ages all wrong for this. This vote will have implications for decades to come so 16 and 17 year olds should be allowed to vote. I happen to think that we will end up coming out and this vote will be swung by the pension vote - and let's face it, they will be least affected by it since IF job losses do occur it won't be them looking for work.
Be nice no longer filling in EC Sales Lists or Intrastat declarations though.
Starting to concur
Secondly, and controversially - I believe we have the voting ages all wrong for this. This vote will have implications for decades to come so 16 and 17 year olds should be allowed to vote. I happen to think that we will end up coming out and this vote will be swung by the pension vote - and let's face it, they will be least affected by it since IF job losses do occur it won't be them looking for work.
I am more and more coming to the same viewpoint and may well at the end of the day let my children direct my vote (despite my inherited belief from my father that all one's children continue to be children irrespective of how old they become; I think I only got recognised by him as an adult after circa age 47 when he had reached 80!)
VAT
Not read through the full thread, but one point which has been missed by both campaigns is the mass influx we will have of the expat Brits coming back from Spain.
They will come back in droves due to the Inheritance Tax implications for non EC residents.
Secondly, and controversially - I believe we have the voting ages all wrong for this. This vote will have implications for decades to come so 16 and 17 year olds should be allowed to vote. I happen to think that we will end up coming out and this vote will be swung by the pension vote - and let's face it, they will be least affected by it since IF job losses do occur it won't be them looking for work.
Be nice no longer filling in EC Sales Lists or Intrastat declarations though.
Tax rules will have to change a lot if we leave the EU.
Why limit it to 16 and 17 year olds? By your logic shouldn't babies have the vote?
What about VAT? Will we have a sales tax or another indirect tax?
The EEA
I thought the EEA was worse than EU membership. This was highlighted by Schauble yesterday that EEA countries having all the disadvantages and few of the advantages!.
However, looking at the following article it may be a good intermediate step. There are still many advantages of being an EEA member rather than an EU member.
https://independentbritain.wordpress.com/2016/03/06/a-new-settlement/
The lack of integration is harmful for all
Worst of all, immigrants who do not respect the host countries laws because they consider their religion to be more important than the law of the country they live in.
They have no respect for their adopted country or the people who live there. Why they think they are exempt from the law beats me. Integration is not possible when those attitudes persist.
I like to read everyone's views and opinions and here is one I found from the Jewish Community about immigration and integration. It makes a very interesting read.
http://mosaicmagazine.com/essay/2016/01/does-europe-have-a-future/
I notice a lot of "In" people
I notice a lot of "In" people pointing out (quite rightly) that we won't know what we are getting into if we leave. This is, of course, and accurate assessment. We could be walking into Hell's mouth or the Garden of Eden.
What we can, however, be certain of, is what we'll get if we remain, and that will be further legislation that benefits us not a jot, and will probably cost us; regulation that just screams of madness; yet more money taken from our national coffers to support this unelected body that we never voted to join (the EEC was not the EU); and more demands made on our infrastructure, housing and land, healthcare and welfare, that we are unable to control no matter how much we shout.
At least by leaving we have half a chance of building the Britain that WE want, and not the Britain that Europe wants us to be.
This indecisions bugging me
What we can, however, be certain of, is what we'll get if we remain, and that will be further legislation that benefits us not a jot, and will probably cost us; regulation that just screams of madness; yet more money taken from our national coffers to support this unelected body that we never voted to join (the EEC was not the EU); and more demands made on our infrastructure, housing and land, healthcare and welfare, that we are unable to control no matter how much we shout.
The counter near certainty that arises upon leaving (imho) is that once left it will be pretty tricky (maybe near impossible) to rejoin the EU in the future (unlikely to be accepted). So whilst staying in does still allow the future option to leave (albeit probably years in the future) leaving is possibly a one way bet for a significantly longer number of years.(of course presumes the EU itself survives)
The plus point of leaving is once voted to leave and left this discussion is over for a considerable period (generations). I really cannot see a campaign being started to rejoin, so at least future generations get some certainties which do tend to assist stability and therefore possibly later investment. A vote to stay on the other hand will really not rest the matter, we may get a few years of subdued agitation for another referendum, but there will likely thereafter be a further impetus for another referendum.
So imho one of the plus points of voting to leave is I think it will draw a firmer line under the issue whereas I think a vote to stay will linger like a bad smell.
So, leave vote, short term more uncertainty (maybe up to 10 years, who knows) but longer term greater certainty. Stay vote, nothing settled, issue grumbles along erupting every so often putting a damp on economic certainty.
Darling you gotta let me know
Should I stay or should I go?
If you say that you are mine
I'll be here til the end of time
So you got to let know
Should I stay or should I go?
Always tease tease tease
Siempre - coqetiando y enganyando
You're happy when I'm on my knees
Me arrodilla y estas feliz
One day is fine, next is black
Un dia bien el otro negro
So if you want me off your back
Al rededar en tu espalda
Well come on and let me know
Me tienes que decir
Should I stay or should I go?
Me debo ir o quedarme
Should I stay or should I go now?
Should I stay or should I go now?
If I go there will be trouble
An if I stay it will be double
So come on and let me know
This indecisions bugging me
Esta indecision me molesta
If you don't want me, set me free
Si no me quieres, librame
Exactly whom I'm supposed to be
Diga me que tengo ser
Don't you know which clothes even fit me?
Sabes que ropas me quedan?
Come on and let me know
Me tienes que decir
Should I cool it or should I blow?
Me debo ir o quedarme?
Should I stay or should I go now?
Me debo quedar o me debo ir?
If I go there will be trouble
Si me voy - va a haber problemas
And if I stay it will be double
Si me quedo es doble
So you gotta let me know
Me tienes que decir
Should I stay or should I go?
Me debo quedar o me debo ir?
benefitting from legislation
....what we'll get if we remain, and that will be further legislation that benefits us not a jot, and will probably cost us.
..
We get this wherever we are and whatever Government we have.
I live in [insert town and county] and there is loads of legislation and regulation that does me no good at all but I don't mind that because (well sometimes) it benefits others; those who don't live here and who make demands on our infrastructure etc etc etc.
I do wonder what Britain WE want. Not in my view the Britain the Dave or Jeremy want or [continue inserting politicians names until bedtime]
A good start
I do wonder what Britain WE want. Not in my view the Britain the Dave or Jeremy want or [continue inserting politicians names until bedtime]
Would be a brand new set of politicians (in all parties, both in the UK and the EU) that gave us hard facts instead of lies and spin. It's a pipedream for now, but maybe one day ... when some scientist has invented a truth drug that gives guaranteed results (and no antidote!) . :)
time to count up
Can someone with nothing much to do tally up the INS and the OUTS in this thread please.
And perhaps the undecided
Can someone with nothing much to do tally up the INS and the OUTS in this thread please.
And perhaps the undecided.
Really the ideal to start with (remember, we have months) is two threads , one marked as "pros/cons remaining" one marked "pros/cons leaving". No lengthy discussions amongst us, just listed points each with its stated arguments for/against.
The whole question is really heaping things on either side of the scale and then making a call, each individual places more/less import re each point, a bit like a university essay where one argues both sides, evaluates the evidence and eventually draws a conclusion. (Without the cheat of writing the opening statement and the conclusion first and then filling in the evidence afterwards- did that a few times)
I suspect I will remain undecided for some time.
Most brains dont work like that
There may be many relevant points but most people only have one/two/three subjects that are VERY important to them and they can easily work out which way to vote based on them.
For example with me I would say that the main subjects are:
Sovereignty,
Immigration, and
Trade
Sovereignty and Immigration make me want to be OUT and Trade would want me to be slightly IN because of the free trade within the EU but I think we could do alright with our own trade deals over the long run.
This makes me vote OUT.
Agreed Peter
My priority is:
Democracy: The UK has very little say in the EU and even that is usually ignored or overrruled. The push towards a superstate cannot be halted, and we all know whats coming ... EU control of taxes, defence, immigration, who can own property .... everything. These are all in the pipeline. Does anyone honestly believe the wishes of our country will be considered? It will always be EU first, individual countries second and like the Flat rate VAT scheme, there will be winners and losers, but we get a choice about whether to join FRS. The EU ignored our call for reform even though Brexit was on the cards so there is zero chance of us having any influence if we vote 'remain'.
I am happy to compromise on everything else but leaving the EU would make everything else I hope for a possibility, rather than zero chance.
HMRC
I heard (and I am not sure how reliable this was) that HMRC staff had an internal memo telling them "it is in their best interests for us to stay in the EU" and to be very careful what was posted on social media re the EU as their accounts would be monitored.
So that's how the stay in get their votes :-)
It's already been widely reported that Civil Servants are expected to two the Government line. Ironically, if Government tried to take action against any Civil Servant arguing against in a private capacity, the case could be heard and won in the European Court of Human Rights.
For those interested:
Here is how the referendum in/out campaigns will be funded.
How will the campaign work?
The Electoral Commission will oversee the contest to make sure it is fair and has set out guidance on its website. Groups can apply to be the “designated campaign” for either side, until the deadline of 31 March. The commission will decide which groups will lead their side of the campaign on 14 April.
Official campaigns will get a grant of up to £600,000 and have a spending limit of £7m. They are also entitled to campaign broadcasts and free mailshots. Other groups are still allowed to campaign, but must not spend more than £700,000 and must report the sources of donations. If they don’t register with the commission they will be limited to spending less than £10,000.
Political parties can also spend money on the campaigns. The Conservatives have £7m, Labour is limited to £5.5m, Ukip £4m and the Lib Dems £3m. Other parties have a limit of £700,000.
Independence
Stelacca you should mean building an England we want not a UK we want. Scotland does very well out of EU subsidies. A no vote will lead to an independence yes vote. Scotland will arise and be a subsidised nation again.
Turkey in the EU?
My understanding is that has to be unanimous agreement amongst member states to accept a new member. After all, the French initially vetoed the UK's application.
I can't imagine a world in which Greece and Cyprus would vote to allow Turkey in. With Turkey's human rights issues (the latest being the outrageous decision to forcibly take over the country's largest newspaper), I suspect other members would object.
But I suppose if it makes the Turks happy they can have accelerated talks, for all the use it will do them.
Horse trading?
My understanding is that has to be unanimous agreement amongst member states to accept a new member.
The voting may depend on the 'alternatives' that are offered, both by the EU and Turkey.
OUT
Because -
- I want to live in a democracy again
- I want to have control over the laws that I live under
- I want to limit immigration because unlimited is too big a number
- I want my children to be able to afford a home
- I want my local countryside protected from ever more housing estates
- I want to trade freely with third world countries to improve their economies
- I want to minimise the consequences to this country, of any future poor European decisions
Democracy?
That argument makes me laugh. I live in an area where a monkey could be put forward as a labour candidate and would win.
What say in democracy do I have?
Boundary Commission
That argument makes me laugh. I live in an area where a monkey could be put forward as a labour candidate and would win. What say in democracy do I have?
Would this be one of the small constituencies (possibly in the north) which allows Labour to form a Government with 33% of the vote whereas the Conservatives need 36% to do so? It's about time DC asked the Boundary Commission to even out the size of the constituencies before the next election and thereby make our electoral system more democratic.
That can change
That argument makes me laugh. I live in an area where a monkey could be put forward as a labour candidate and would win. What say in democracy do I have?
That can change, that used to be the case in the West of Scotland, not so now, looks like the SNP cornered the market in monkeys.
We need proportional representation
FPTP creates disinterest as people are well aware that voting for anyone but the big parties is a wasted vote. Those who do vote tend to vote for keeping certain parties out, rather than voting for which party best represents our interests.
Transferable vote
I'm a big fan of the transferable vote system. This keeps the connection between politicians and electorate but makes the individual more powerful than the party.
learn from history
Is everyone who is in favour of OUT also in favour of Scottish independence?
Would you also be in favour of independence for Wales? and Cornwall, Wessex, and Mercia and Norhumbria and so on? Maybe we should have lots of city states like Italy did in the 1700s.
All the political talk is about short term stuff - and jockeying for power.
The reason we lack the influence we should have in Europe is because we sit on the sidelines and whinge and go on and on about being a special case.
Did you know that in the last 20 years English has become the main language in Brussels? We heave some great advantages and we should get in there and lead it in the right direction (if we can ever agree what that is).
But I guess to do that we need some proper leaders.
Not necessary
Is everyone who is in favour of OUT also in favour of Scottish independence?
Would you also be in favour of independence for Wales? and Cornwall, Wessex, and Mercia and Norhumbria and so on? Maybe we should have lots of city states like Italy did in the 1700s.
All the political talk is about short term stuff - and jockeying for power.
The reason we lack the influence we should have in Europe is because we sit on the sidelines and whinge and go on and on about being a special case.
Did you know that in the last 20 years English has become the main language in Brussels? We heave some great advantages and we should get in there and lead it in the right direction (if we can ever agree what that is).
But I guess to do that we need some proper leaders.
I think people want to get out of the EU because the people who make the decisions seem to have no interest in individual countries or what they want. Within the UK it is nowhere near as bad. If Scotland vote to leave then fair enough. If somebody votes to leave I would be happy with them leaving.
I would prefer proper decision making as far down the line as is sensible rather than the present fudges proposed by politicians.
Reason we lack influence
The reason we lack the influence we should have in Europe is because we sit on the sidelines and whinge and go on and on about being a special case.
The reason we lack influence in Europe is because most countries (or at least their political elites) want to be part of a vast monolithic super-state and we don't. There you have it - in a nutshell.
What's the point in having influence if you have to go along with something you don't believe in?
They're not going to change their ultimate aims just to suit us, and we're not going to whole-heartedly support about any new laws that advance those aims, so we're better off recognising that fundamental disagreement and exiting the EU so we can negotiate our own relationship with Europe unfettered by EU treaties.
I agree
The reason we lack the influence we should have in Europe is because we sit on the sidelines and whinge and go on and on about being a special case.
The reason we lack influence in Europe is because most countries (or at least their political elites) want to be part of a vast monolithic super-state and we don't. There you have it - in a nutshell.
What's the point in having influence if you have to go along with something you don't believe in?
They're not going to change their ultimate aims just to suit us, and we're not going to whole-heartedly support about any new laws that advance those aims, so we're better off recognising that fundamental disagreement and exiting the EU so we can negotiate our own relationship with Europe unfettered by EU treaties.
I agree with this totally. Some people - even the British - blame the UK for everything but I think if you are part of an organisation that seems to get everything wrong - the Euro, freedom of movement (mainly from poor countries to rich countries), mass immigration - then you have to accept that rather than being part of the incompetence you are better of being away from it.
Alas poor.......
The reason we lack the influence we should have in Europe is because we sit on the sidelines and whinge and go on and on about being a special case.
The reason we lack influence in Europe is because most countries (or at least their political elites) want to be part of a vast monolithic super-state and we don't. There you have it - in a nutshell.
I would add that we are not as used to politics by deal/ fudge/ negotiation- over the years we have had few coalitions so the approach is alien. I suspect divergent interests is more to blame than lack of wheeling and dealing skills. but I doubt our lack of skill helps.
I imaginet that when we ran an empire deals within deals within deals was our metier- maybe these skills are now lost.
The other thing we really cannot get our head round is that we never get what we want or expected or believe we paid for, the EU is certainly one of the prime examples of the definition of a camel.
Of course it could just be something like we tend to have to travel further than the French and Germans for the meetings, pretty tiring so not at our best.
Still I am left with, leave/remain, that is the question unanswered for now;- I think I may be sounding here like Hamlet with my inner angst- "there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so"
A client's view
Just had a client round who works for Eurocontrol and we were discussing the actual nuts and bolts of negotiating new trade agreements post-exit. One thing's for sure. It's not going to be as easy as the Leave campaign think. Sounds like a nightmare.
On balance I think we're still better off leaving, but it will be a torrid time. He likened it to leaving a secure employment in order to go self-employed. You need to be pretty brave!
He did think of one good reason for leaving. He wants the pound to crash as he's about to sell his house in Brussels and buy a new one here!
On the other hand, he'd probably lose his job as it's dependent on EU science funding.
Has Lin Homer been promised a job in Brussels?
Some very interesting figures have been disclosed. According to Office for National Statistics 904,000 EU migrants entered Britain between July 2010 and June 2015. However, during that same period according to the Dept for Work & Pensions 2,234,030 EU national insurance numbers were issued.
Interestingly all attempts to investigate this huge discrepancy have been thwarted, by Lin Homer, the discredited HM Revenue and Customs who admits holding the information, but has been refusing to answer Freedom of Information requests and Parliamentary questions on the matter.
Yet another example of the “stay” campaign withholding information that would help the “out” campaign.
Our government is behaving like some corrupt South American dictatorship in its desperate attempts to stop the public from claiming Britain back from the EU power grab.
Cameron to go
Some very interesting figures have been disclosed. According to Office for National Statistics 904,000 EU migrants entered Britain between July 2010 and June 2015. However, during that same period according to the Dept for Work & Pensions 2,234,030 EU national insurance numbers were issued.
Interestingly all attempts to investigate this huge discrepancy have been thwarted, by Lin Homer, the discredited HM Revenue and Customs who admits holding the information, but has been refusing to answer Freedom of Information requests and Parliamentary questions on the matter.
Yet another example of the “stay” campaign withholding information that would help the “out” campaign.
Our government is behaving like some corrupt South American dictatorship in its desperate attempts to stop the public from claiming Britain back from the EU power grab.
More and more Cameron's actions mean that he should resign this year.
Wars and the EU
Discountants wrote:
I see the EU as the best example of trying to apply the principle of rule of law to work between nations rather than the system we had before in Europe - which was anarchy between states, characterised by the balance of power with it's shifing alliances and the frequent wars when that power shifted.
======================================================
OK, so being a member of the EU "prevents" wars, now was it not the case that with Ukraine World War 3 was almost started a year or so ago? EU encouraged former part of USSR to have closer ties to the EU, result Russian military action in Ukraine that some would say was close to causing World War 3 to start up?
Problem is that EU is expanding over-ambitiously and is singularly unfamiliar with the adverse consequences which can create social disquiet, unrest and premature deaths of the population arising from military action and cultural differences.
Corruption, EU and lack of democracy
The tired accountant wrote:
Our government is behaving like some corrupt South American dictatorship in its desperate attempts to stop the public from claiming Britain back from the EU power grab.
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The word corrupt is very apt in any discussion of the merits of the EU.
As is the phrase "lack of democracy"
Corruption: I believe that the accounts of the EU are in such a mess that they cannot be signed off by auditors. I wonder if corruption is present, more likey in a situation of unauditable accounts as opposed to the preferred situation of properly auditable accounts.
Corruption: the word "corruption" goes hand in hand with persecuting whistleblowers (now might it not be the case that a whistleblower re: EU accounts has sufferred as a result of exposing the scandal of the EU accounts?).
Persecution is not valid in a democracy, but then is the EU really a fully accountable democratic entity?
Regarding the EU it is an unauditable organisation that moves decision making further away from the local populace - effectively diluting democracy.
The EU is perhaps best described as a corrupt official or corrupt politician's heaven.
Reminds me of international sporting bodes / organisations.
Project fear...Daren't go with Whittle's jet engine; give away the hovercraft; don't help dyson to re-invent the vacuum cleaner - take a leap of faith. We're out!
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