Fees for accessing old accounts files?

Didn't find your answer?

I've been watching the conversations recently from members griping about support coming to an end for old Sage 50 Accounts programs and the end-of-life announcement for QuickBooks Desktop.

Because of the need to retain access to tax records for six years, these decisions are obviously causing some stress for accountants using them. But spare a thought for businesses using more complex systems, if what iplicit is saying is true.

The mid-market cloud software house sent us a press statement alleging that some accounting software vendors are demanding large sums (in the thousands) to give users access to records on the legacy system after they have migrated to another software platform.

We'll obviously be asking iplicit to substantiate these allegations and seeking our own corrobororation, but the Any Answers grapevine is one way we can do that.

Has anyone here heard of anything like this happening or experienced it yourself? If the situation is delicate, feel free to send me a private message and we can keep the details out of the public domain.

If true, it's obviously a worrying trend, and I hope by raising the issue here we aren't giving any software developers unsavory ideas. 

Thanks as always for your help.

Replies (57)

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By CJaneH
26th Jul 2022 18:07

This will also be a problem when people retire. As a sole practitoner with a small practice I have never gone paperless. I will be retiring shortly and though I will have to store boxes of paper for some time I am glad not to have this problem. When software was not in the cloud you were at least left with data you could access but not amend.

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By rmillaree
26th Jul 2022 18:10

Pretty much all the software i have used i can export ful transaction history to excel job done - only othe real necessity is exporting vat calcs.

Obviously trick is not to leave yourself at the mecry of the big boys so if youn styop using ensure you extract info that should pretty much always be "doable" if you are using sensible software.

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Replying to rmillaree:
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By bendybod
28th Jul 2022 09:48

Exactly what I do if a client ceases trading and doesn't want to carry on paying the likes of QB.

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RLI
By lionofludesch
26th Jul 2022 18:16

The paperless office is one of the great threats to accountancy firms.

I made sure I had enough information on paper before I retired and that increasingly seems to have been a wise decision.

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Replying to lionofludesch:
paddle steamer
By DJKL
27th Jul 2022 09:50

The catch is what to do with it- I am losing my nice spacious office as we sold the site, accordingly I am now personally having to pay £108 per month for a storage unit that will in part be use to store former client files (it also has numerous other things like about every game and console my son ever owned).

Catch is that while the company that was my practice no longer exists I still feel a personal obligation to store these former client records. (The only thing I have changed is purchasing legal wallets to store multiple year files for a client all together in less space (I used to use ring binders))

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Replying to DJKL:
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By Rgab1947
28th Jul 2022 09:56

Scan it all and keep in Dropbox or on a portable HDD.

I am completely paperless (well I try) and keep everything on my systems (dropbox and portable drive)

Got caught by my bank when looking up bank statements older than 18 months. Had to request them and got paper 3 months later. All scanned now and I download every 6 months or so all statements.

QB allows access for a period after closing down the subscription.

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Replying to Rgab1947:
RLI
By lionofludesch
28th Jul 2022 10:11

Rgab1947 wrote:

Scan it all and keep in Dropbox or on a portable HDD.

Who's got time to scan everything ? It's more onerous than keeping the paper.

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Replying to lionofludesch:
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By Kaylee100
28th Jul 2022 10:26

And one day the HDD won't work. So you need 2 really.

Dropbox will start charging, or increase fees. Moving over to a new system will take time.

I can see benefits in that access can be from anywhere, presumably. That does make sense. But for longevity, I do like paper!

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Replying to lionofludesch:
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By Tomazaan
28th Jul 2022 14:12

For around five years I have scanned paperwork as I go along and this does not take up further time.
For older records, I employed a student to scan everything before shredding it. It took several years of summer holidays and it cost a few thousand pounds but well worth the money. I now have limited paper files which are stored in my office and easy access to all old information.

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Replying to Rgab1947:
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By janefg
17th Aug 2022 15:44

Unfortunately, when Quickbooks Desktop ceases they are literally pulling the plug and blocking all access to the program from 31 January 2023. One won't even be able to look at old data say, if there was a VAT or HMRC investigation. Horrific!

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By Leywood
26th Jul 2022 18:51

Griping!

Wow.

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By Calculatorboy
26th Jul 2022 19:08

Just because support is ending for desktop versions doesn't necessarily mean you can't use , access or export data .

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Replying to Calculatorboy:
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By Hugo Fair
27th Jul 2022 10:07

In the case of Sage (and their insistence on junking your 'perpetual licence' with the only alternative, other than oblivion, being a nice new shiny & expensive subscription) ... Yes it does ("mean you can't use , access or export data")!

They have the ability to make your software stop working (like an on/off switch - nothing to do with support) and they're not afraid to use it.

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Intercity
By Mr Hankey
26th Jul 2022 19:13

Like rmillaree has already said, software can export a transaction listing to Excel (which I save within my working papers as a matter of course).

For my own bookkeeping done in Xero:
- Excel transaction listing saved on my computer each year when I prepare accounts
- Copy PDF sales invoices saved on my computer when each one is created
- Copy PDF purchase invoices saved within Xero, but also on my computer

If you're not careful with also saving things to your computer and rely on everything just being stored within the software, then I can see how people could potentially come a cropper.

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By Hugo Fair
26th Jul 2022 20:42

Nothing anecdotal to add on the specifics raised here, but I've been warning for over 10 years that the only thing more dangerous than 100% reliance on the Cloud ... is when you combine that with a subscription-based licensing model (whether for application software or data storage or both).
And the Sage saga (on the verge of becoming the first 300+ comments thread that I've seen on here) confirms exactly that.

When I set up a software company nearly 30 years ago (so well before the Internet) I quickly became acquainted with the concept that we issued a 'Licence to use' not a 'Licence of ownership'. But it was just as quickly pointed out to me (and accepted as morally just) that we needed to make explicit the separation of ownership of the data (which remains with the licensee) and ownership of the software (the licensor).

I'm not sure if there is an industry 'norm' but we always had available an open offer to the (few) clients who wished to terminate a licence:
a) the data is yours so feel free to take a raw download before your licence ends (or in practice occasionally a little while later); BUT
b) be aware that vast volumes of organised SQL data are not particularly easy to search or indeed report upon when in that raw state, so for a small fee (typically the equivalent of a 1-user support licence) you could convert to a read-only licence - fully maintained & supported but not for new processing.

[We also had a more expensive option for when a client was moving to another system AND wanted to transfer all their data to the new system AND their new supplier didn't know how to achieve this. On more than one occasion this caused the client to doubt the wisdom of moving ... but that's another story!]

The moral of all this?
To paraphrase Ian Dury ... There Ain't Half Been Some Greedy Bastards, recently.

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Replying to Hugo Fair:
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By Hugo Fair
26th Jul 2022 20:55

And FWIW, this whole topic is not just about Accounts data ... it applies to all things Cloud-based. For instance:

Regarding iCloud accounts, Apple clearly state in its terms and conditions that “You agree that your Account is non transferable and that any rights to your Apple ID or content within your Account terminate upon your death”.
Apple go on to state that upon them receiving a death certificate, the account may be terminated and all content within the account deleted.

So if you collect music digitally (even if you also own much of the content in vinyl or CD form), then the online content cannot be passed safely by your executors to your beneficiaries.
And any family photos that you've digitised & uploaded will be gone forever on your death IF (like several people I know) you then destroyed the paper versions!

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Replying to Hugo Fair:
John Stokdyk, AccountingWEB head of insight
By John Stokdyk
27th Jul 2022 12:14

Your point about what happens to your data with consumer cloud services is a good one, Hugo - but doesn't exactly apply to these incidents.

To clarify the details, the people who have encountered this situation are describing what happens when they try to leave their old desktop suppliers for a new one. Some of the clauses being invoked are derived from "software as a service" contract terms, but it seems that relying on desktop software suppliers won't necessarily protect you from sharp practices.

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Replying to John Stokdyk:
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By Hugo Fair
27th Jul 2022 12:46

Although it's certainly true that nothing will always "protect you from sharp practices", the Cloud model places far more negotiation cards in the hands of the licensor ... which I guess was my point.

Or in plain English, it will always be 'caveat emptor' ... and the old-fashioned (if not legal) tenet that stated "possession is 9/10ths of the law" was never more true than when you allow your data to be controlled by a 3rd-party!

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Replying to Hugo Fair:
John Stokdyk, AccountingWEB head of insight
By John Stokdyk
27th Jul 2022 13:21

Your point about what happens to your data with consumer cloud services is a good one, Hugo - but doesn't exactly apply to these incidents.

To clarify the details, the people who have encountered this situation are describing what happens when they try to leave their old desktop suppliers for a new one. Some of the clauses being invoked are derived from "software as a service" contract terms, but it seems that relying on desktop software suppliers won't necessarily protect you from sharp practices.

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Replying to John Stokdyk:
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By Hugo Fair
27th Jul 2022 14:10

Did you mean to just copy'n'paste your previous response from over an hour earlier?

I get that that you wanted your thread to focus on a different aspect - but you opened with "I've been watching the conversations recently from members griping about support coming to an end for old Sage 50 Accounts programs" ... so, given the current furore (rather than mere griping) about what Sage are actually doing (not just ending support), you must have expected some corrective replies?

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Replying to Hugo Fair:
John Stokdyk, AccountingWEB head of insight
By John Stokdyk
28th Jul 2022 13:57

sorry for unexplained duplicate. It happens to all of us on Aweb once in a while. I'd delete it, but that would make the thread even more disjointed.

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Replying to Hugo Fair:
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By bendybod
28th Jul 2022 09:52

That's good to know since my brother downloaded loads of content for himself, his wife and his son.

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By paulwakefield1
27th Jul 2022 07:54

"...griping about support coming to an end for old Sage 50 Accounts programs..."

John, If you mean the thread with 15,000 views and 300+ posts and think it is griping about end of support, you have missed the point. No-one is griping about the end of support. All understand that. They are rightfully upset because Sage are stopping them accessing their program for which they have a perpetual (i.e. 15 year) licence on the back of a tech problem of Sage's own making. (I do of course realise that TLS 1.0 is not a Sage issue in itself but the fact they used it when they did and what they use it for and their failure to provide a solution is)

Given this is one of the longest threads that I can recall in the 24 years I have been on this site, I am surprised AccountingWeb has been so quiet on the subject.

More generally your point about access to historical data is valid. I, like other responders, have long been wary of over reliance on the internet/cloud. It has many benefits but local data retention is vital in some form.

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Replying to paulwakefield1:
John Stokdyk, AccountingWEB head of insight
By John Stokdyk
27th Jul 2022 12:19

Yes Paul, you have picked me up for using a shorthand industry phrase to describe the situation. The point is, though, that "end of support" means "end of life" even if it is sometimes a long, slow death.

It happens much quicker with mobile phones, I find, but if the developer stops supporting or updating the software you can continue running the program on the old hardware. But if the disk breaks down or you need to update the computer for some other reason, your old code will no longer work and you will lose live access to the old data.

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Replying to John Stokdyk:
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By Hugo Fair
27th Jul 2022 12:40

To use a well-worn (some might say over-used) phrase, you're missing the point John.

As per my post above at 27th Jul 2022 10:07, Sage are not withdrawing support or future upgrades - they are 'throwing a switch' that will prevent licensed users from being able to log-in to their software (for any purpose).

It's sort of akin to getting home only to find that the landlord has changed the locks (and will only let you back in, even to collect your belongings, if you sign a new vastly more expensive rental agreement)!

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Replying to John Stokdyk:
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By paulwakefield1
27th Jul 2022 12:51

To reinforce Hugo's point. This is not an end life matter (unless you argue that Sage using TLS 1.0 at a time when they knew it was outdated constitutes end of life*). The code is fully functional on any new Windows computer and is easily transferable.

*Indeed some of the posts in the other thread show that they appear to be using TLS 1.0 AND 1.2 in the same release.

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Replying to John Stokdyk:
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By Leywood
27th Jul 2022 14:59

John Stokdyk wrote:

Yes Paul, you have picked me up for using a shorthand industry phrase to describe the situation. .

I picked you up.

I dont know why I thought that Accountingweb might use their editorial 'might' (!) to run with the sage threads in a wider way to get some traction for the many users who are being, frankly, conned. Shame you appear to belittle the problem by use of such phrases.

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By Kaylee100
27th Jul 2022 09:45

When I visit our archive for a file history for CGT purposes and get distracted looking at old papers with pounds, shillings and pence, beautifully crafted ETBs, tax returns from the 1940s and letters from HMRC starting "Dear Gentlemen", I compare how easy it is to read these things and imagine how hard it would be if it was filed on those old small floppy (that weren't floppy) disks or the 6 inch really floppy ones from the 80s and 90s.

Whilst digital links may give a better trail now, at some point in future that will become no accessible trail.

Mind you, we could then redevelop our archive and make it a useful studio apartment for someone to live in! Perhaps it would be worth trading a "bunch of estimates" for that real benefit to someone.

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Replying to Kaylee100:
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By North East Accountant
28th Jul 2022 09:47

I have recently had the trip down memory lane looking at old paper records and it's as accessible today as it was then......great to look back too.

"At some point in future that will become no accessible trail."

So true........and for some this will create a massive liability problem.

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John Toon
By John Toon
27th Jul 2022 11:52

I can confirm that this is absolutely the case with legacy vendors squeezing every last drop out of businesses that choose to move on to a different system. It's not new, but it does seem to be more prevalent and the fees being asked increasingly large. Also happens in the PM space with read only licences being dished out so you can see historic time and fees etc

I could name names, but...

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Replying to johnt27:
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By Hugo Fair
27th Jul 2022 12:16

Ah, g'wan, g'wan, g'wan ... You will, you will, you will.
(with apologies to Mrs Doyle)

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Replying to Hugo Fair:
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By Leywood
27th Jul 2022 15:00

Brilliant

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Replying to johnt27:
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By bendybod
28th Jul 2022 09:56

I bet we could have a good guess.

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By Cath Walker
28th Jul 2022 10:25

My experience is:
Quickbooks:
To quote from one of my ceased accounts: "You have access to data and reporting until one year. You can resubscribe to pick up where you left off if you decide to come back."

So, you can access the data read-only for 12 months after the subscription ends (and i have done that in the past), after that I have been told that they store the data for 6 years, but then it looks like you have to subscribe again to get access (but if you resubscribe through your accountant account, if you resubscribe for a day and then unsubscribe when you have what you need, it should only charge you for the day). It is just a matter of clicking a button to resubscribe.

Xero: I think lost access as soon as the subscription was cancelled for the client that I transferred to QB and you have to resubscribe if you want any access. Looking at the account on Xero now, I cannot see an easy way to resubscribe and when I did need to get into the account, I messaged Xero asking them how I could access it and never got a reply (anyone else find Xero's lack of live support irritating?) - luckily I managed to piece together the information from what I downloaded before we cancelled the subscription.

Another reason to avoid Xero for me!!

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Replying to Cath Walker:
By Charlie Carne
28th Jul 2022 13:20

This is quite a good service from Intuit if, indeed, they really do keep the data for 6 years. However, it would be better if they publicly stated that they guarantee to keep the data accessible in read-only format for 6 years (ideally a little longer) with access after (say) 1 year chargeable on a daily basis, or recovery for full access at normal subscription rates.

The new QBO Advanced offers back-ups, so that would (I hope) even allow the previous accountant to keep a copy, while the new accountant has full access. Since Intuit have the tech to take back-up copies (for the Advanced SKU), they'd do well to consider allowing all of their QBO Pro Advisors to also keep back-up, read-only copies of standard QBO files when the client moves on to a new accountant or simply stops using the software. If that back-up is only there for read-only access and can never be restored for full access, this will prevent it cannibalising sales of their Advanced SKU, but provide reassurance to those accountants who fear losing access to data of clients in that situation.

Intuit used to offer a Windows desktop version of QBO (that synced with the cloud in real time). I suggested a number of times that this would be a great way for accountants to keep a permanent backup copy on their own computer of old data in a read-only format that no longer required storage on the QBO cloud platform. But, sadly, they recently deprecated the desktop app.

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Replying to charliecarne:
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By janefg
17th Aug 2022 15:54

Intuit have told me that they will literally switch off the Desktop software on 31 January 2023 so one can no longer use it or access it. I said I was quite happy to continue to pay a subscription to continue to at least access the information, and was told that would not be possible as the system would be switched off!

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image of Paul Sparkes
By Paul Sparkes
28th Jul 2022 12:59

Just coming back to the original question from John, we've found the practice of charging customers a 'Right To Use' licence is becoming much more prevalent in today’s world.

Many customers who have chosen to move to iplicit have shared that this practice from their previous provider was in many cases not actually in line with the agreements they originally signed and therefore questioned the legal position on this.

Given the clear change in approach from many vendors, the iplicit team have now reacted and developed a new Data Archive facility which enables new customers of iplicit to import their old data into a special 'Archive' area where they can view old transaction info and even management accounts for previous months and years.

We felt this option delivered on multiple levels as these customers have the advantage to see old data easily within their new system and they avoid these punitive 'Right To Use' fees.

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Garry Mumford
By insight
28th Jul 2022 14:13

Like others here I do find the software providers solution of holding their customers to ransom abhorrent. However, whilst they might listen to the moans it is unlikely to change their position.

So what we should be doing is finding solutions and workarounds for our clients.
In our work as an outsource provider we are often migrating clients off their current systems, some old legacy platforms some more modern cloud solutions. There is therefore the common problem of what do you do with the old system and old data.

As an iplicit outsource partner, the solution offered by them as Paul Sparkes outlined earlier is very elegant and in our eyes shows them to be an ethical company that helps rather than hinders.

Perhaps part of the solution is not to look back but look forward and see what solutions the incoming software provider is offering?

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Replying to insight:
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By Jason - Accountant
28th Jul 2022 15:23

Your post is basically an advert for your company. Not helpful frankly and quite insulting to those posting on here who are not idiots in need of educating. By and large they are experienced heads highlighting real issues and motivated enough to want to make a noise about the poor treatment professionals and our clients (often small) are getting. The uproar can not fairly be described as moans or gripes. If you want to advertise I suggest you pay for it.

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Replying to Jason - Accountant:
John Stokdyk, AccountingWEB head of insight
By John Stokdyk
29th Jul 2022 10:49

Could you maybe back off a little, there Jason. While you're so keen to police what is or isn't acceptable to post on AccountingWEB, we have moderators who are paid to do that job and make those decisions. If the post offends you as spam, report it and let us decide.

You have been insulting to the two previous posts in the kind of language you have used, so maybe you could try and moderate your language in future.

For sake of clarity, the community rules talk about the need to keep posts relevant and to avoid "blatant self-promotion". Vendors like iplicit are part of our community and have a right to be heard. Since Paul raised the original issue on which this thread is based, it's only fair that he should have a say and while insight is stretching the promotional boundaries, what he posted is at least relevant to the discussion.

Finally I was the person who used the word "gripes", for which I apologise. I should have been more sensitive to the distress members are experiencing over the Sage 50 announcements.

Meanwhile, we still don't have examples of people who have had to come up with the so-called software parachute payments. If Johnt27 or some of the original complainants could come forward, we could take this story forward.

However, the level of discussion around end-of-life announcements is something I'll raise with our technology editor.

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Replying to John Stokdyk:
Garry Mumford
By insight
29th Jul 2022 12:11

My sincere apologies John if my post was "stretching the promotional boundaries"

It was not my intention to promote at all, just to provide context. Apologies if my words did not achieve that.

My point was that the other way of looking at this is how your incoming software provider can provide a solution, not only look at the issues with the outgoing one. Something which with our extensive experience with iplicit we know they have made a good attempt at addressing.

It was not my intention to do anything else or cause offence.

Garry

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Replying to John Stokdyk:
John Toon
By John Toon
29th Jul 2022 15:30

Happy to contribute John. You know where to find me (usually outside Euston on a delayed train....)

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Replying to johnt27:
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By Hugo Fair
29th Jul 2022 16:30

I was a bit worried there ... until I got to your final two words! :=)
[But then you're probably too young to remember the correlation between that part of London and seedy activities.]

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By David Gordon FCCA
28th Jul 2022 16:18

Hugo Fair, John Stokdyk et al:
1) If you lose a client do you expect to be responsible for passing for free, archived information onto the new accountant? No? I thought not. I learned the lesson fifty or so years ago when an accountant wanted to charge £500 (nowadays £000+) for a single important letter. I complained to the ICAEW, The reply was he is entitled to charge whatsoever he wishes. Sauce for goose etc....
2)
Ownership of Data on the "Cloud" is, unfortunately, not settled in English law. Use of that Data is covered by copyright and confidentiality laws , but ownership is not.
some years ago there was a case in the USA, wherein the US Government agency claimed that the data was owned by the owner of the facility on which is was stored.
I never got to hear of the result of the case.
But it stuck in my mind:
A senior English Barrister was asked the question. He opined that English Ownership of Property Law was still stuck in the days when ownership was defined by lumps of stuff you could touch. He opined that the US govt claim that the Data belonged to the owner of the facility on which it was stored, (A Bl**dy great disc in the Arctic) had merit.
I very politely wrote to Sage, Digita, IBM and three or four other well known firms, asking what their legal departments thought. I did not receive a single reply.
To this day I have not read of a definitive answer to the Question.
First person to point me at legal opinion proven in a Court of English law, or Statute definitively covering this question wins a bottle of Glenfiddich.
Perhaps the software providers who inhabit or hover round these pages might like to comment?
Facts please, not opinions.

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Replying to David Gordon FCCA:
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By paulwakefield1
28th Jul 2022 16:32

David Gordon FCCA wrote:

Hugo Fair, John Stokdyk et al:
1) If you lose a client do you expect to be responsible for passing for free, archived information onto the new accountant? No? I thought not. I learned the lesson fifty or so years ago when an accountant wanted to charge £500 (nowadays £000+) for a single important letter. I complained to the ICAEW, The reply was he is entitled to charge whatsoever he wishes. Sauce for goose etc....

I think if your lost client said I want my books back now please, you would have no choice and would have to pass them back for free. So I don't think your analogy holds.

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Replying to David Gordon FCCA:
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By Hugo Fair
28th Jul 2022 17:24

Well I can't (and don't) speak for John, David, but:

1) My 'gripe' about loss of (access to) data wasn't restricted to the impact on Agents ... it applies every bit as much (arguably even more so) to unrepresented taxpayers.
But, for what it's worth, I'm happy to pass on to a client any data (that I have and can access - which is the key point) that belongs to them.
However this is a false equivalent as I don't offer contracts to store & maintain their data for them, which is what the ISPs and software vendors are doing ... before reneging on their own contracts.

2) I don't believe there is a definitive case (let alone primary legislation) that defines Ownership of Data on the "Cloud" - certainly not across international borders.
But, again, my point was that all the power is in the hands of the ISPs and software vendors ... partly through their onerous and complex licence terms (which you cannot as a licensee negotiate), but mostly because they have the upper hand of 'possession' and use (or abuse) that with impunity.

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Flag of the Soviet Union
By thevaliant
29th Jul 2022 17:11

There are, in reality, a more practical way of dealing with these things:

1. Scan everything, ideally as you go along.
2. Dump nominals to Excel and save them on the accounts/audit file.

That way you will find that it is unlikely that Sage/Xero/whoever will be able to hold you to ransom in the future.

Onsite storage and offsite backup.

Also, be ruthless with your data retention anyway. Former clients should have their details deleted after six years. If you're being particularly aggressive, existing clients too after the same period (though I think few would do that).
It probably isn't a bad idea to periodically review what you have saved down for a client. Too often I see on our network, Lotus 1-2-3 files from the 1990s. They can't be read or opened by Excel, and the value even if you could is pretty much nil. Just delete them.

Of course, this is a task in itself, but once got on top off, I think things can work out just fine.

The final approach came from an ex-partner who left our firm many years ago. Six months later he popped in to clear his office which had been left. He said to me in these six months not one person had requested any of the information contained in the scattered piles around his office.
He did suggest he could've just launched the lot in the dumpster out back. He might be right.

Fact of the matter is, 90% of what you generate will never be looked at again.... the risk is the 10% that is.

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By David Gordon FCCA
01st Aug 2022 11:50

Dear Hugo Fair
I started as junior clerk in 1961 !! :-)

I still have my dip-pen and inkwell on my desk.

We were taught to add-up (Cast) through adding the columns in telephone directories.

it was a different universe.

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Replying to David Gordon FCCA:
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By Hugo Fair
01st Aug 2022 14:28

It was indeed a different (not all better or all worse) universe.

But, although it sounds like we've both been through most of the same evolutionary steps, I'm not quite sure as to the purpose behind your response directed at me?

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By David Gordon FCCA
02nd Aug 2022 14:56

Dear Hugo Fair
It was just because your name popped out of the list!!
We clearly understand our worlds
Incidentally no-one has taken up my offer re proof of ownership of Data in the "Cloud"
I had thought that John Stokdyk might have a commercial interest in the subject.

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