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grounds for appeal do you think?

grounds for appeal?

Grounds for appeal?

I've picked up a couple of last minute clients for self-assessment. All authorise with HMRC now. neither has P11d information and one is missing his p60.  we might be able to get this information from the employer (or ask the client to get it) but it did occur to me that now HMRC are refusing to provide this information over the telephone, it seems like a reasonable excuse for not filing on time, just wondered what everyone else's view was.  seems to me that HMRC could have a larger pile of appeals to wade through than usual thanks to this daft policy.

oh, and as it is silly season, jsut thought I'd share this.  Haven't looked at the site, but the fact it exists tickled me.  have fun with the sa100's.  Only 50 to go for me!



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22nd Jan 2018 10:52

Grounds for an appeal yes.
Grounds for a successful appeal no
Tried this one last year but told not. Tried this year in advance for a client in bed with shingles and facing the loss of sight in one eye and told no, but they did say after the deadline they might reconsider

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22nd Jan 2018 11:03

Not a hope in hell, IMO. The responsibility is the taxpayer's to ensure that they have the info, and not HMRC's to ensure that they provide it.

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22nd Jan 2018 11:05

I think the chance of that being successful is somewhere between slim and none.

I get that HMRC have the information, so why not just give it to the agent, but when it comes down to it, the client has had since April last year to get this information - not really much of an excuse that they only bothered trying in the last couple of weeks.

I managed to set up my own personal tax account quite quickly if I recall correct and it has the information there - why not get the client to do this if you're struggling?

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By scrasey
22nd Jan 2018 11:28

Thanks for the replies. there are occasions when the client hasn't received the information and the previous employer refuses to provide it or has closed. just seems a shame that one or two morons in management positions at HMRC can make these decisions with impunity. I could understand if this information was available to us on our agent log-ins. but to stop providing it without an alternative surely is adding to the workload of HMRC not lessening it? and the poor staff who have to say yes I can see the figures there but I can't tell you what they are, you have to feel sorry for them. and what happens if we phone to dispute a figure they hold, will they discuss it then? absolutely barking. not wonder HMRC was described as not fit for purpose. rant over.

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22nd Jan 2018 11:50

Quite a few personal tax programmes have the facility to retrieve data from HMRC records, particularly employment related data. Keytime, which I use, certainly has that facility.

As regards an appeal, you'd have more success knitting fog.

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22nd Jan 2018 12:37

@ scrasey (OP).

Unless there are other complexities (I surmise not so, since no doubt you would have mentioned them) then we are considering a “standard employment” case (with employment benefits). In intending no offence. therefore, I see no reason why the Returns cannot be submitted, the appropriate “boxes being ticked/white space notes made being made” thereon re the necessity to include estimates.

If you are unable to ascertain exact figures from the clients and the employers (ie from forms P60 and P11D) then it would normally be possible to estimate the relevant income figures from several other sources, e.g. :-

2016/17 Payslips (especially March 2017)
2017/18 Payslips.
Coding Notices (2016/17 and 2017/18).
Information from previous accountants (if any).
Copy Tax Returns for 2015/16 (if any).
The source indicated by Chris (11.50 post)(if applicable).

Then of course you will query, with the client (as you would do in any event) changes in circumstances.

Employment Benefit figures for the last submitted Tax Return (I assume that Returns were submitted for 2015/16) will probably have been included in the 2016/17 and 2017/18 Codings, hence ascertain, from discussing with the clients, whether there were any changes in 2016/17 (e.g. changes of cars).

Entirely notwithstanding any delays attributable to sloth by the clients, the fact that HMRC have indicated that they will not supply information reasonably requested is a fact which should be included in the “white space notes”.

An entry not to be overlooked is (to paraphrase) the "tax outstanding re a previous year included in the PAYE Coding".

Please of course consider whether any payment will be required to be made to HMRC by 31 January 2018.

It would be reasonable to require the clients pay to you a “charged on account re preparation of 2016/17 Tax Return” invoice before proceeding.

If you are happy to act under time constraints imposed on you (you were free to decline so to do, but having submitted 64-8 forms, you are presumably happy so to do), then I feel you are obliged to prepare the Returns (unless of course, when agreeing to act, you had no reason to believe that the clients would be unable to supply the required information).


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22nd Jan 2018 16:55

The correct course of action is to submit an actuate as possible* provisional return on time and revise it just as soon as the actual data is in hand. There is a box to tick on the return to mark it as provisional. Use the white space to give an explanation and a date of when the return will be revised.
Estimates and provisional figures are not the same thing.
*But erring on HMRC's side to reduce the possibility that too little tax is initially assessed and paid.

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22nd Jan 2018 15:20

HMRC's attitude with which I have total sympathy is that they have 10 months to prepare and send the return why have they left until the last minute

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By scrasey
22nd Jan 2018 16:50

@ basil thanks for the detailed reply. to be fair it just seems like HMRC are going out of their way to make life difficult for agents. its in everyones interests for people to pay the correct amount of tax. taking the service away before there is an online allternativeseems daft to say the least. Given that half the time at least HMRC dont even bother to read appeal letters I imagine plenty will appeal on the offchance.

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