Help! Subcontract Accountant / Bookkeeper.

Help! Subcontract Accountant / Bookkeeper.

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I own a small, but rapidly growing firm of accountants. For many years before I qualified, I worked for various accountants on a subcontract basis. They would give me a set of self employed books and records and I would go and prepare the accounts, together with a note of all of the queries. I would be paid a percentage of the fee. My business is now growing so fast that I am struggling to train up staff. I need someone to do what I used to do! It seemed at the time to be fairly commonplace in practice. The question is, where can I find these people?

Thank you for any help and advice that you can provide.

Replies (35)

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By new2accts
13th Aug 2014 01:18

I know the feeling!
Not enough hours in the day is there ! Have you placed an ad on gumtree for someone with experience as well look at posting in the opportunity section here. Good luck. X.

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Stewie
By Stewie Griffin
13th Aug 2014 08:04

Opportunities

Have you looked at the opportunities section, here on AWEB?  There are always people looking for subcontract work.

 

 

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By FCExtraordinaire
13th Aug 2014 08:56

AWeb

Look at opportunities section of AWeb ,  I for one advertise as a subcontractor. 

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By David Franks
13th Aug 2014 09:13

Be wary. We have found people are calling themselves book keepers after doing 6 week Sage courses and have no accounting knowledge or knowledge of TB, double entry etc.

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Replying to legerman:
By mrme89
13th Aug 2014 09:49

.

David Franks wrote:

Be wary. We have found people are calling themselves book keepers after doing 6 week Sage courses and have no accounting knowledge or knowledge of TB, double entry etc.

 

I posted a link to a website here months ago to a website. The woman had taken a 6 week style course and was advertising on Facebook as a Tax Accountant.

The website was riddled with errors regarding accounts and tax, which was no surprise.

The best bit was tax returns for £50, or £30 if you supplied the numbers.

 

It was fun last week watching it all unfold on Facebook when people were messaging her saying they had received letters saying their tax returns hadn't been filed.

 

She later deleted her Facebook.

 

 

 

 

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By Moonbeam
13th Aug 2014 09:58

Skills shortage at present

It is very difficult finding anyone with any accountancy/bookkeeping skills at present. As we emerge from the recession such paragons can find plenty of other opportunities.

I personally don't sub out work, but have been searching for a part-time person with experience. The people who've applied for my job have no decent experience.

So don't blame yourself for this. All I can suggest is you keep trying, or think of more imaginative ways of attracting the attention of the few good people there are out there who are still looking for your type of opening.

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By The Innkeeper
13th Aug 2014 11:15

Part of the problem is


people go on a Sage course for a month or so and can think they can call themselves a bookkeeper. In my grumpy mode I actually think everyone should learn manual bookkeeping before they are let onto a computerised system . A computerised system might produce arithmetically correct accounts that balance  but are they sensible?

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By gigagirl
13th Aug 2014 11:18

You can find qualified/insured bookkeepers with Practice Licence on www.bookkeepers.org.uk. You can post on their lead for what you are looking for, required level of qualifications and experience.  This page is only visible to bk who meet your qualification requirements so you won't get applications from muppets.  These jobs are also emailed out to the nearest practising BKs who fit the requirements. Also their insurance and ML procedures are verified as part of the PL too. And you can call the ICB if you have any questions.

Also, each level of qualification has both manual and computerised element. Both have to be passed to gain the qualification. 

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By Moonbeam
13th Aug 2014 12:25

Ah Yes the ICB!

What an interesting organisation they are. They tell the people enrolling for their exams - much easier and faster to pass than AAT - that they can go off and strut their stuff in the wide world with their "qualifications". I think it's plain misleading to tell members and businesses that without experience they can do a good job.

I've met someone who had passed ICB who needed a lot of convincing that practical experience is essential before going it alone and unleashing yourself on the poor old clients.  

That said I wouldn't value AAT qualifications on their own without having a good look at the person and the experience they tell me they have.

I am amazed at what poor quality experience people will settle for in their jobs, but maybe they don't have the ability to get better quality work.

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By gigagirl
13th Aug 2014 12:56

Agreed, the exams were ridiculously easy, but some formal training is better than none. There are a number of us who have gained sufficient experience to be able to manage general bookkeeping, VAT payroll and some (simple) SA stuff.  Although I had a great accountant who took me under her wing and was a wonderful mentor.  I would suggest anyone subcontracting any work to anyone to carefully review the work completed, as no bookkeeper is going to have the level of training and understanding in tax to get everything correct.  Otherwise we would all call ourselves accountants.  Once you have gauged their abilities you'll know how much you can expect, or look for someone else.

I personally am halfway through ACCA qualification, and knowing what I know already, I don't think that bookkeepers should be able to do SA as the understanding required is just too great.

 

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By thecreativeaccountant
13th Aug 2014 13:04

Groupon

I've seen some great 'Become an Accountant' online courses on Groupon for about £30. I wish I had saved myself the time and effort of university and CIMA!

When I was in practice I hired a bookkeeper who was already self employed and she was charging me £20 an hour to do everything, including the filing. It was a very expensive mistake although she was excellent at the bookkeeping!

Perhaps an admin person would help take some of the pressure off you? I would speak to friends and family to see if they know anyone efficient and reliable to help out with some of the basics. Same goes for an experienced bookkeeper, as I suspect it is always good to find someone who is recommended by someone you trust than hoping the person that responds to your advert isn't a muppet.

Also, have you considered reviewing your clients to see if you can let some of the less profitable clients go? I faced a situation with my practice whereby I was growing at an unsustainable rate and had to either invest in staff, downsize or sell the practice to someone with the infrastructure to cope. I went for the last option, but I won't comment on whether that was the best option!!!!

Best of luck!!

Sarah

 

 

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By timmypunk
13th Aug 2014 13:09

subcontract

I am on the road of setting up my own practice ,so looking to subcontract to other accountants .

 

I live in west Yorkshire ,but my client base expands beyond that .

 

you can contact me on accounting web ,if you require my phone number

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Replying to johnhemming:
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By LMP
14th Aug 2014 18:54

Sub contract accounts work.

 

  Hi,

 I,m looking for sub contract accounts work. Part qualified ACCA with many years experience of accounting. Presently have some but not enough !

 I am North West based, north of Liverpool and can work from home and post records back or come to office, depends on location.

 Are you interested at all ?

 

 Regards, LMP

 

 

 

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By murphy1
13th Aug 2014 15:18

Definitely agree that the Sub con route can be very difficult.

I would definitely get some admin support as a first step ,this is what I did. I didn't realise how much time I spent doing this type of work, particularly if, like mine, the business is expanding rapidly, The Engagement letters, Client Management System updates, new files etc are all work a capable administrator can do you have a template set up to drop in the specific client info for letters etc

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By coolmanwithbeard
13th Aug 2014 15:27

Do some training?

As as been mentioned quals without experience are not up to much - but what about those doing AAT? I Have picked up staff voluntarily studying AAT and paying to do it at a local college - they can be bright intelligent and mouldable to your way of working. You can even take them on as an apprentice so the cost can be lower and they may get their fees paid so they'll be happy too.

Often they will do a short trial and if you hit it off its got to be a winner. I have one working here at present now with AAT4 and gaining good experience - she's out at a client's two days a week and were all happy.

 

Plus if we don't do this how will they learn?

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By Moonbeam
13th Aug 2014 15:32

Agree with Coolman

I've tried to get the local college people to apply for my job, but the ones that have are beyond the pale, unfortunately.

If I keep trying maybe I will find a good person!

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By shell990shell
13th Aug 2014 15:41

Hi all,

Thanks for the varied responses, which I have found very interesting.  I already have a part time admin assistant and also a part time data entry clerk.  I do really need someone who just knows what they are doing from start to finish for a small set of self employed accounts.  I guess the ones who are most competent are probably working for an accountants!  I have found that managing a business is in itself a job that has taken up a lot of my time.  In addition, I have clients who only want to deal with me or, more to the point, who I struggle to entrust to anyone else!

I have had several enquiries now from posting on the AW Opportunites and also on the Gumtree site.  Ideally, I would sub a couple of jobs out to each potential candidate and see how it went.

Thanks again, it has been a very interesting read and I will let you know how I get on.

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Replying to johnhemming:
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By LMP
14th Aug 2014 10:46

Sub Contract Accounts work.

 

  Hello,

 I am looking for flexible, sub-contact work myself and am interested if I can be of help.

 I need to work flexibly,mostly from home, due to family responsibilities, and would welcome more work. My son has a medical condition, but attends school in term time.

At present, I am working from home for a property leasehold company dong the books and completing the final accounts.Limited company.

 I have many years (20+) experience both in commerce, public sector and practice. Also, I am part-qualified ACCA.

 I know fully how to complete a set of accounts from start to finish, and also have experience of online tax returns.

 Are you prepared to give me a trial run. I am North West based, where are you ?

 Looking forward to hearing from you soon, LMP.

My mobile is 07713-163800.

 

 

 

 

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By Liz D
13th Aug 2014 18:08

In defence of the ICB

After working in corporate for more years than  prefer to admit too. I joined the ICB to get the qualifications to back up my years of experience.   I have to agree that some of those that take the exams feel they are qualified to do everything - which obviously they are not, which is notable by the questions they ask on the ICB forum.The majority however do know what they are doing honest....

There are different levels within the ICB and if you advertise for a bookkeeper on the website you can state the level you require AICB, MICB, FICB and what qualifications/experience you need them to have.  Although if you advertise minimum wage (which some of the clients do)  then  peanuts / monkeys spring to mind. 

Personally along with having my own clients I do ad hoc work for three accountants and direct client work for two others, so I must be doing something right.

 

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By WallyGandy
13th Aug 2014 19:34

The irony of it......

 

I ran my own show in small practice for many years- hands on and experienced in all the usual software.  Not only that, I have all the experience of full time practice and I'm happy to share this if required.  There's hardly a type of client I've not had experience of. Except a pimp. Never had one.....

After sale (tired of working too many hours in a VERY unpleasant area) I sold, then tried to get subcontract work but I got nowhere.  

Presumably I was thought to be predatory. No way- had I wanted to carry on full time I would have done so. Or kept a small block for myself.

It would be different if the subcontractor says "building own practice" Many do. I would be careful there- job priority and potential poaching would put me off.

I''ve over 40 years experience- no intention of retiring as I love the work. I'm fully qualified FCA and happy-ish to do the messy jobs the rest of the staff don't like.  It's what subbies get.

Predatory? No way. Don't want to know any more- I've done my stint and glad I got out. You're quite right with training staff. How many hours in the day?

PM me if you wish- I carry my own PI Insurance, Prac Cert (for bookkeeping) and I'm in it for the enjoyment as well as the money.

 

 

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Replying to WallyGandy:
By Jim Bennett
02nd Feb 2017 14:42

Where are you based ? Are you still interested in sub contract work?

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Replying to Jim Bennett:
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By WallyGandy
03rd Feb 2017 15:23

Hi Jim
I'm in North Wales, but travel often to Warrington area.

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By marks
13th Aug 2014 20:14

agree with the above

Agree with the comments above.

It is difficult to get someone who you just give a job too and say "there you go, do it from start to finish".

I am at the point where I had to get some additional help (currently have about 150 clients) and is proving difficult to get the work done as well as all the other stuff of running a small accounts business eg dealing with emails, correspondence, client meetings, marketing, networking, filing, shredding, scanning, doing your own accounts etc etc.

Decided to bite the bullet and get someone in.  Luckily someone who I used to work beside me contacted me who asked if had any opportunities.  They have 7 years experience in accounts, tax, bookkeeping etc and according to the office manager of my old place she can give him any job and be confident that he can handle it.  Thats just what I need.

Though I did dodge a bullet from an agency.  They sent me a CV that looked good on paper, all the experience and skills I needed.  But it just didnt add up.  Her last job was Aug 2012 (what had she done the last 2 years?).  A quick google search and up popped BBC website......She had been jailed for 31 months for embezzling £250k from her previous employers. (this was the second time she had been done for embezzlement).  Wasnt happy with the agency and asked them what checks they did on her and her CV.  Was astonished that the guy said they didnt do anything and that was common place in industry (what do they do for their 20%????).  Moral of the story is get someone you know or who is recommended as you dont know who could be walking through the door.

May also look at getting an admin person in to do the filing, letters, shredding, eng letters as got about 10-15 in my in box to get done and out in the post to new clients.  That is usually my Saturday task.

Mark

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By puzzel
13th Aug 2014 20:55

I agree with Wally

I turned up trumps for the contractor, only downfall was when I served them a CCJ for none payment.

They knew that they were in the wrong, and promptly paid up.

No love lost, but strangely, I still do a bit of work for them.

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By Cazzy
13th Aug 2014 21:59

Interesting...
Really interesting reading this thread. I have the other problem. Lots of experience, Used Sage for last 13 years. Worked in accountancy practices over several years. Used to be given the proverbial plastic carrier bag and told to prepare spreadsheets suitable for preparing accounts/vat. Also using Sage in a 4/5m turnover company. Lots of experience in setting up businesses as well as running the financial side of existing businesses . However since one of my main clients decided to retire I have struggled to replace them. I know the accountants practice I sometimes help with would take me on but I want to be independant. So where are the accountants or businesses that can use me!

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By musclefoot
14th Aug 2014 12:15

agree with the irony

My experience from the other side is also frustrating.

I've looked for part time/subcontract/flexible work so I can spend time with my son. I presume because I'm qualified, firms either think I will try and poach clients or I'm over qualified and don't want to do bookkeeping and basic accounts prep. Both incorrect assumptions of course.  

Also, you get what you pay for. If someone is offering to do work of qualified accountant as self employed for peanuts, chances are they are they will have issues.

Given up looking for now and stayed with full time job. Based in North Yorkshire and opportunities are sparse!

 

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Torben Halvorses owner of PaperLess Document Management for Sage
By torbenhalvorsen
14th Aug 2014 14:25

The right staff and also the right software

If your business is growing fast you not only need the right staff but also the right software to make processes simpler and faster than before. 

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By heatherhobbs
14th Aug 2014 15:13

I also agree it is hard from the other side

I also had a tough time from the other side. 

I was looking for good part time work to fit around my children, and couldn't find anything.  They either wanted a cheap as chips fully qualified accountant, or a bookkeeper, but not a qualifed, as people always believe a qualified would not want to do 'just bookkeeping.  This is an incorrect assumption as most working parents are looking for flexibility, and are happy to do what is required if the pay is right. 

I am now working pretty much full time for an employer as a Financial Controller, which includes the entire bookkeeping function too as I am the only finance person in the company.  I am still working more hours than I would really like to, but there is not much out there for a qualified accountant looking for part ime work. 

I think there is a business opportunity here, matching qualified and decent part time workers with relevant businesses!  

 

 

 

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By WallyGandy
14th Aug 2014 20:48

Moderator?

 

Can someone please inform LMP that the correct place for his advertising is to be found in "Opportunities"........

I'm clearly looking for work, too, but tried very hard NOT to advertise overtly in the wrong place.  This is a discussion forum.

 

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By shell990shell
14th Aug 2014 22:25

Wow!

A lot of very helpful insights, views and opinions (as always on Accounting Web).  I popped a post up on opportunities and also on Gum Tree.  I have to say that the response I have had on Accounting WEB opportunities has been outstanding.  I feel confident that I have a solution here, I just have to spend a few nights sifting through and making some decisions and offers.  I really do think it is possible to find the right person.

What I need to do now is stop reading accountancy forums and do some of this work! :-)

Thanks again,

Michelle

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By sophiakonstantinos
25th Jan 2017 20:54

Hi
I am looking for book keeping/accounts prep subcontract work. I am ACA qualified.

Are you still looking for people?
Where are you based?

Sophia

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Replying to sophiakonstantinos:
paddle steamer
By DJKL
25th Jan 2017 21:01

You may get a better result sending a personal message to the OP, click their name and follow the links, it is a very old thread. (2014)

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Replying to sophiakonstantinos:
By Jim Bennett
02nd Feb 2017 14:48

Yes. Where are you based?

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Replying to Jim Bennett:
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By LMP
03rd Feb 2017 16:33

Hi,
I am P/q ACCA, looking for sub-contract accounts work.
Based in North West, Nr Formby.
Are you interested in taking on more people at all ? If poss can records be posted, depends on your location.
Let me know or PM me please.
Thanks, LMP

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By [email protected]
08th May 2019 18:00

Hi I know this post is from long ago, but are still looking for sub contractors. I am ACCA qualified looking for subcontracting work. I have over 10 years experience of working in practice and want to be a subcontractor post maternity.

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