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HMRCs Giles McCallum vision for MTD & THAT article

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AWeb has stopped further posts to https://www.accountingweb.co.uk/tax/hmrc-policy/hmrcs-giles-mccallum-on-... so please continue the discussion here.

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Morph
By kevinringer
03rd Dec 2021 14:56

I lived through the introduction of Self Assessment in 1996. That change involved the transmission of content (tax) using new medium (new paper forms). The new system was designed by people who dealt with the content (tax) and not the medium (paper forms). That was common sense. What would the designers of paper forms know about tax or businesses?

Fast forward to MTD and we have the same content (tax) but a new medium (digital). So why is it that the new regime is being led by the people who design the medium and not the content? Nothing person against Giles, but unless you know tax and businesses, how can you possibly design a system that works? Yes you can design "a" system, but that's not good enough. It has to be something that can realistically be achieved. If HMRC continue with their blinkered MTD goal and introduce something that is not achievable, it will do just that: not achieve. It won't work and there will be a lot of HMRC people with egg on their faces.

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By Justin Bryant
03rd Dec 2021 15:01

Tells you everything doesn't it (HMRC are basically unaccountable, so what do they care even if they know (like all of us do) that it's all gonna end in total disaster)?

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By ireallyshouldknowthisbut
03rd Dec 2021 15:08

The interesting thing about mtd is the tax return side of things which is infinitely more complex than quarterly filing....does not appear to have been developed at all. So we end up with a lame duck quarterly reporting connected to er nothing with junk data in it. This is worse than hs2 in that they don't even evenn get to Birmingham...

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Replying to ireallyshouldknowthisbut:
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By Hugo Fair
03rd Dec 2021 15:10

But it'll probably (sometimes) get to somewhere that contains some of the same letters as Birmingham ... so surely that's OK then (or are you going to remain picky)?

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Replying to ireallyshouldknowthisbut:
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By NotAnAccountant2
03rd Dec 2021 17:27

I haven't checked everywhere but I think whitespace notes are gone with MTD. That's one of the problems with paper, too flexible :-P

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By Hugo Fair
03rd Dec 2021 15:07

Good on you, Kevin. But wait ... is that the distant sound of clapping?
No, it's the clickety-clack as the tumbrils race towards you down HMRC Avenue ... and les tricoteuse take up their positions in readiness!

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By Paul Crowley
03rd Dec 2021 15:17

The problem is that GILES had no capability, authority or option of doing anything other than being HMRC mouthpiece.
He should have declined the invitation as he has no understanding of the way small business and landlords work and record activity: the trader would know what they want and need

Completely unable to disentangle from the years of HMRC propaganda despite having the oportunity to look at the MTD threads and his own special article

Not worked in accounts or tax, just IT
Even worse was the lets get money quarterly announcement they day before.
HMRC set him up as a patsy

The daft comments that the low bar is about inclusivity really showed he was out of his depth

Still he remains completely undamaged
Accountants and their clients are the people damaged by the monster he wants to let loose on the non taxpayer

Posted twice as one will definitely be pruned

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By alialdabawi
03rd Dec 2021 16:20

Have we as a profession missed an opportunity here? I was expecting more fire and brimstone at those two sessions - indeed the one with Head of MTD was chaired by ACCA - both organisations could have been pressed harder during the session - but there was no mob of angry agents in the room, as there are on this forum.

Could we have done more? Both individuals were approachable and accommodated one-to-ones after their sessions.

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Replying to alialdabawi:
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By GHarr497688
04th Dec 2021 00:38

We should not have to be angry accountants at a commercial event. They should work with Accountants privately and before any decisions are made they should take at least 5 years to see if MTD for VAT record keeping is accurate. I would guess that what is behind the nine boxes is rubbish . They live in Utopia with no responsibility.

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Joanne Birtwistle
By Joanne Birtwistle
03rd Dec 2021 16:38

Thank you for your comments. The main reason we were forced to close comments on the two articles mentioned in these threads is because of the high volumes of activity and the nature of some of the comments being posted. Some were consistently breaking community rules and included personal attacks so had to be taken down. At this moment we do not have the resource to adequately resource the level of moderation needed.

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Replying to Joanne Birtwistle:
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By GHarr497688
03rd Dec 2021 20:26

That sounds like a very weak excuse as U have seen worse. I have received awful comments and yet nothing was done. This is a curtailment of freedom of speech.

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By More unearned luck
03rd Dec 2021 17:43

Members of Parliament are among the class of 'special' people who are not allowed to file on line. These special people send paper returns to PD2. Does anyone know if those special people who have rental income or self-employment (I expect MPs will be allowed to carry on as SE consultants or doctors or lawyers) will have to make quarterly returns and if so how?

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By GHarr497688
04th Dec 2021 00:32

An interesting point is that Joanne Birtwistle was only employed by Accountingweb in October 2021 and based on the fact that the article refers to the most commented article of late it seems so "odd" that this article has been blocked on new content. I am of the opinion they should have let it run on to assist HMRC in a true appraisal of MTD. My opinion is they are so far in with this ridiculous scheme they dare not turn back. I think it's a great pity that HMRC will be the long term losers and once they realise it will be too late.

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Replying to GHarr497688:
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By Tax Dragon
04th Dec 2021 02:25

HMRC will be the long term losers? What does that even mean?

Is it as daft a comment as that by Mr McCallum that Granny will benefit in the long term by computerising - and that's why government has so kindly set the threshold at £10,000, so that Granny will be forced to computerise?

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Replying to Tax Dragon:
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By GHarr497688
05th Dec 2021 20:55

They will lose as I suspect unchecked records produced on computers will lead to loss of tax. HMRC have failed to check the results of MTD to date.

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Replying to GHarr497688:
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By Tax Dragon
06th Dec 2021 02:02

You do realise that HMRC doesn't keep the taxes it raises? That it's not a for-profit organisation? It's collecting tax so the country can run. If HMRC loses (on your definition), we lose.

"HMRC have failed to check the results of MTD to date."

Do you know what those results are?

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Replying to Tax Dragon:
Morph
By kevinringer
06th Dec 2021 08:26

Tax Dragon wrote:

If HMRC loses (on your definition), we lose.


Exactly, which is why MTD is a lose lose policy: neither HMRC (the country) nor taxpayers win. I remember responding to HMRC in a consultation about MTD saying it would increase the tax gap, and it has. Why should taxpayers and agents go through so much grief with MTD if the country collects less tax? And that's just MTD VAT. I can only image how much the tax gap will further increase with MTD ITSA. One thing is for certain, the tax gap will definitely increase further, and that is not in the interest of the country, HMRC, agents or most taxpayers.
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Replying to kevinringer:
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By Tax Dragon
06th Dec 2021 10:18

If you are right - that there is a demonstrable link between MTD and loss of tax - then someone should have raised that with Mr McCallum at Live Expo.

(Or is that the real reason why the threshold is "low bar"… make MTD apply to non-taxpayers and you can say there is no consequent tax loss!)

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Replying to Tax Dragon:
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By Hugo Fair
06th Dec 2021 10:49

Oh great ... so now I can look forward to being mandated to submit returns for VAT, IHT, etc - on the basis that those won't lead to any tax loss for the state! :-)
[Not sure how to indicate tears - of laughter or pain would be equally appropriate].

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Replying to Tax Dragon:
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By GHarr497688
06th Dec 2021 21:17

I feel you don't understand what I am trying to get at . MTD has not been tested on HMRC side so the errors could be significant using software taxpayers don't fully understand i.e.forcing taxpayers to change record keeping to an uncomfortable system etc.

If the tax received by HMRC is lesser ( as no proof otherwise) then the receipts into the government are less with higher expenses in bringing in this new system , this will mean less income to fund essential public services which in turn means the Government loses out on revenue to even run it's own services and pay it's own staff. Usually systems are introduced in stages , each stage checked carefully to make sure it works. HMRC are going along the lines that they have spent million on a project constantly delayed and so they are needing to keep changing the original concept to justify the cost. I.e. Accurate digital records filed quarterly v file rubbish each quarter , then scrap it and so what you have always done. An approach that makes no sense coming from those who are not involved with the Accounts/Tax preparation or even deal with Taxpayers.

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Replying to GHarr497688:
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By Paul Crowley
04th Dec 2021 02:29

Mods tend to react to complaints by the sensitive
Prior moderation was getting better, as in email to poster and posting left in place replaced by the word moderated so as to keep the thread intact

Current system has gone back the days when I first started posting in June 2020 of just sweep everything away leaving the resultant article or thread completely disjointed.

I have even of late put in posts about how things were so improved compared to the old days

Still its their toy even if the clicks and the motor is driven by comments and regular responders to any answers

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