Holiday Pay & 16 year olds

is a 16 year old gaining work experience & being paid during summer holiday entitled to holiday pay

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The Daughter of one of our employees has come to work for us during the summer holidays (July & Aug) doing general admin duties 2 to 3 days per week, gaining work experience & getting some pocket money.

She hasn't left education & is continuing with her studies in September. As a company we are following all the other rules, works less than 8 hrs per day, lunchtime, has to have 2 weeks off during the summer holidays, rate of pay etc.

Is she entitled to holiday pay?

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By kestrepo
06th Jul 2022 15:30

My usual go to would be to ask what her contract of employment says but presumably she does not have one - and she probably should! I would give her holiday pay for 2.5 days based solely on the fact that this small token will keep an argument from happening and keep the other employees onside too. You could offer that they be paid in her final payment rather than taking them which would be another incentive as well.

(Rough workings: say 25 days pa / 5 days per week x 3 days per week worked = 15 days per annum / 12 months x 2 months worked = 2.5 days)

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By Bobbo
06th Jul 2022 21:41

kestrepo wrote:

My usual go to would be to ask what her contract of employment says but presumably she does not have one - and she probably should!

Surely OP's employer provided this person with at least the principal statement [of employment particulars] (which includes details of holiday entitlement) on the first day of their employment as they are legally required to do!!

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RLI
By lionofludesch
06th Jul 2022 17:01

Yes - of course she should have holiday pay !

I make it 5.6 weeks x 2/12 x 2 to 3 days = 1.87 to 2.80 days.

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By Hugo Fair
06th Jul 2022 18:10

Be careful of vague colloquialisms in an Employment context.

I'm being pedantic but if she is "doing general admin duties 2 to 3 days per week, gaining work experience & getting some pocket money" ... then she is an employee.
Hence, yes she is entitled to holiday pay.

"She hasn't left education & is continuing with her studies in September" is wholly irrelevant to her employment status - and rights (including being paid at the NMW + holiday pay + and so on).

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By Refs1
06th Jul 2022 19:06

Simple answer yes.
Treat her like any other employee, plus creates lots of goodwill too. A 16 year old will appreciate the opportunity and we have been doing this for several years and been worthwhile. Lots of flexibility works well.

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By bendybod
07th Jul 2022 10:59

Yes. If she's working irregular hours then the normal calculation would be 12.07% of the hours that she's worked. If she has to have two weeks off during the summer holidays though, I would have thought that you could just pay her for whatever proportion of that is covered by the above calculation.

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By lionofludesch
07th Jul 2022 11:48

bendybod wrote:

Yes. If she's working irregular hours then the normal calculation would be 12.07% of the hours that she's worked. If she has to have two weeks off during the summer holidays though, I would have thought that you could just pay her for whatever proportion of that is covered by the above calculation.

Pfffft ! It's a lot more complicated than that these days.

Though 12.07% is a decent stab.

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Replying to lionofludesch:
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By psimonparsons
08th Jul 2022 07:34

Although unlawful unless meeting the true 5.6 paid week proportion.

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By lionofludesch
08th Jul 2022 07:50

In a two month employment, working the same hours every week, the chances are that it'll be spot on.

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By psimonparsons
08th Jul 2022 08:19

The math may be hard to prove.

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By lionofludesch
08th Jul 2022 08:39

psimonparsons wrote:

The math may be hard to prove.

Not teally. All the anomalies are where the employee has huge variations in hours.

HMRC would be very welcome to spend their time proving that the employee was owed a few pence if it were my client. Crack on - plenty of underworked staff at HMRC....

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By ABD
07th Jul 2022 11:24

yes

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By psimonparsons
08th Jul 2022 07:42

Doesn’t sound like work experience in the official context but work.

If over school leaving age (sounds as if they are), then pay must meet NMW levels.

Stat min holiday entitlement is 5.6 paid weeks leave (prorata) and holiday pay at the 52 paid week average excluding zero pay weeks. If not enough weeks then average over the weeks there are.

Based on 5 day week the stat min annual is 28 days (can include BH).

So if employed for 60 days then 28/365x60=4.7 days.

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By psimonparsons
08th Jul 2022 08:20

If using 2.5 days then half.

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John Hextall
By John Hextall
08th Jul 2022 09:08

Yes, she is entitled to holiday pay for at least about 2 or 3 days. She also has to be paid at least £4.81 an hour (minimum wage for 16 year olds). She will also need a contract of employment from day 1 stating these things (and many others).

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By philrob
08th Jul 2022 21:13

Assuming she doesn’t take any paid leave while she is working for you, the easiest way to do this is to accrue 12.07% of her wages and pay them to her when she leaves.

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Replying to philrob:
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By Hugo Fair
08th Jul 2022 23:32

Easiest, but not the correct calculation. See post by psimonparsons at 07:42 earlier today.

Your method *may* come out on the right side of the statutory methodology - but you're on a hiding to nothing if it doesn't (even by pence).

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By lionofludesch
09th Jul 2022 00:15

Aye, but the key word is "average". If the lass gets her holiday pay at the end of the work period, her holiday pay will be correct.

The only scenario where she would be underpaid would be if she took her holidays mid-employment and worked more hours in the weeks prior to her holidays than after.

None of which fits my understanding of the facts as stated. She works the same hours every week. Her average pay is her weekly pay.

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Replying to lionofludesch:
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By Hugo Fair
09th Jul 2022 12:53

Well, OP said the employee was "doing general admin duties 2 to 3 days per week" ... which I would take to mean doing variable numbers of hours in different weeks.
But anyway, my (and Simon's) point was broader than the specifics of OP's scenario - for which the details remain uncertain.

It was about disabusing readers of the commonly held belief that accruing an extra 12.07% to pay out as holiday pay later is sufficient to comply with the regs.
The results may be close and, as per your point about only paying at the end of employment, may on occasion even be identical ... but the (not so) new rules were specifically designed to make doing that calc the wrong way of going about it!

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By lionofludesch
09th Jul 2022 13:08

Hugo Fair wrote:

Well, OP said the employee was "doing general admin duties 2 to 3 days per week" ... which I would take to mean doing variable numbers of hours in different weeks.

OP also said July and August, which I took to mean that it might be two - or it might be three. Not decided yet.

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