Holidays whilst on Furlough

This is a question about the taking of holiday (rather than accrual)

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I have various staff on furlough. I am happy that entitlement to holiday accrues during furlough, as employment continues.

What, however, about staff who had already booked time off work during the same period?

Does this count as holiday taken - or should it be given back, as it were.

(we are paying 80%).

I did see comment in the papers over the weekend that some folk were also being given time off in lieu for bank holidays during furlough.

Replies (13)

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RLI
By lionofludesch
06th Apr 2020 10:52

Dunno - but I'd guess it's a bit like sick pay.

You can't be sick and on holiday.

I'd guess you can't be furloughed and on holiday either.

Which will seriously bu99er up those folk still paying "four weeks + bank holidays".

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By mbee1
06th Apr 2020 12:49

What's the point in them taking holiday if they're furloughed? There's nowhere to go and nothing to do.

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Replying to mbee1:
RLI
By lionofludesch
06th Apr 2020 13:33

mbee1 wrote:

What's the point in them taking holiday if they're furloughed? There's nowhere to go and nothing to do.

Depends if you need the money.

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the sea otter
By memyself-eye
06th Apr 2020 14:08

Marvellous: the staff get 3 months 'off', come back to work and then demand four weeks paid holiday!
If anything was designed to bankrupt what few viable businesses will still be left, this is it.

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Replying to memyself-eye:
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By Lee11_1989
11th Apr 2020 11:22

When you're "off", the government will be covering the wages or 80% thereof, so the financial strain on the business is reduced.

The employer can also restrict when the accrued holiday is taken, to reduce its impact on the business. Furthermore, the government have said that holiday can be carried forward for up to two years, to lessen the immediate impact on the business.

All of this should significantly reduce the pressure on the business.

My bigger issue is with some legal firms advising businesses to force mandatory holiday and still claim the furlough aid. Some companies are trying to force every employee to take 3 weeks holiday by the end of May, and claim 80% back off the government. The government are yet to comment on the legality of this.

If I was an employee, I would be very unhappy if I lost three weeks holiday whilst on lockdown and stuck at home. Although somewhat grateful to still have a job.

Two sides of every coin.

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Routemaster image
By tom123
06th Apr 2020 14:46

Further consideration, and so as not to prejudice any claim, we have decided to 'cancel' any holidays booked for furloughed staff during this period.

Not doing anything special in regards to bank holidays at this point. But we can always catch up later.

Whilst the JRS scheme seems to apply to all employers, we are nervous.

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By Rachel Roden
09th Apr 2020 10:17

I agree - if you are furloughed you cannot be on holiday. It's about being reasonable and understanding the challenges everyone faces. I have made it clear to staff who are furloughed that holidays previously booked which occur during furlough can be taken later. For staff who are working, we have agreed that they can choose whether to take or postpone their holiday this year.
However, this works for a small team but could be seriously a problem for the larger companies.

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By lizbelsby
09th Apr 2020 10:28

This is a matter of employment law. HMRC provided a link to the ACAS website which explains the rules around holidays.

https://www.acas.org.uk/coronavirus

Basically, the employer decides when employees can take holiday.

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By JULPHI
09th Apr 2020 14:53

I wasn't aware that you accrued holiday during furlough period - I am currently still working and have been told that I must take one day holiday per week so that I'm not in a better position in relation to holidays than those who are furloughed - the idea is that when we are all back at work, we don't all then start to book holidays
Please can someone clarify - maybe my Company has stated in the furlough letters that they are not accruing holiday entitlement ?

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By tom123
09th Apr 2020 15:27

Employment conditions continue to apply during this period, so staff on furlough accrue as normal.

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By Nygie
27th Apr 2020 17:22

The question I have about holiday pay whilst on furlough is does it make up part of the furlough claim.
I am in disagreement with a client over the guidance, where they pay hourly paid workers monthly (variable) x amount of hours plus x hours holiday pay. The calculations for the furlough are based on average pay per the guidance for variable paid workers. The way this client provides hours and holiday hours is obviously worked into the calculations made from the 2019/20 year to furlough date which includes holiday pay (maybe an oversight on my behalf).
The client thinks (rightly or wrongly) that the 80% of average pay is then increased by the holiday pay @ which they have to top up the to minimum wage.
The guidance says " employers will be obliged to pay any additional amounts over the grant." It doesn't say if holiday pay is claimable on the grant.
Wish I could go to sleep and wake up in 6 months time ;)

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Replying to Nygie:
RLI
By lionofludesch
27th Apr 2020 17:35

Nygie wrote:

The question I have about holiday pay whilst on furlough is does it make up part of the furlough claim.
I am in disagreement with a client over the guidance, where they pay hourly paid workers monthly (variable) x amount of hours plus x hours holiday pay. The calculations for the furlough are based on average pay per the guidance for variable paid workers. The way this client provides hours and holiday hours is obviously worked into the calculations made from the 2019/20 year to furlough date which includes holiday pay (maybe an oversight on my behalf).
The client thinks (rightly or wrongly) that the 80% of average pay is then increased by the holiday pay @ which they have to top up the to minimum wage.
The guidance says " employers will be obliged to pay any additional amounts over the grant." It doesn't say if holiday pay is claimable on the grant.
Wish I could go to sleep and wake up in 6 months time ;)

This is a very grey area.

I read the advice as meaning that the employer could pay full pay for a day's holiday but could only claim 80% from the Government.

To me that looks like an 80% subsidy to holiday pay, which doesn't sit right with me.

If that's genuionely the position at the moment, watch out for some backtracking when HMG realise that they've done.

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By mrme89
27th Apr 2020 18:33

You can make employees take holidays whilst being furloughed. If you want to cancel their holidays, you can do. But you’ll have to think of the operational implications when they try and cram a full year of entitlement into 9 months or less.

We have a pool of staff that will be furloughed for 3 months. During the 3 months, we will ensure that they take 1/4 of their holiday entitlement during this time.
You have to give the employees 2 days notice per 1 day of holiday you require them to take.
We are also topping up the 20% shortfall.

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