How to deal with disagreements with partners?

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Currently a tax adviser in a relatively small practice and have many disagreements with partners in incorrect treatment of various items under the guise of "what's best for the client".

This is not just a simple technical argument but fundamental basics being ignored. How have you previously dealt with disagreements with your seniors?

Apologies for the rant but would like other members views.

Replies (15)

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By johngroganjga
03rd Oct 2019 09:46

If these are ethical issues, as it sounds, the only solution might be to look for a firm that is not run by cowboys.

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By paul.benny
03rd Oct 2019 09:55

Agree with Mr Grogan. Your professional body will have an ethics helpline - it's one of the things you pay your fees for.

I would suggest that you keep a (private) record of the occasions when you think the right treatment is one thing and you are instructed to do another. A contemporaneous record will be helpful if the matter ever becomes legal or disciplinary.

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By Justin Bryant
04th Oct 2019 13:12

I would go further and say that anyone willing to risk their livelihood and liberty for the benefit of a client is most probably a crook and needs to be avoided like the plague.

See example at para 40 here:

http://financeandtax.decisions.tribunals.gov.uk//judgmentfiles/j11340/TC...

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Oaklea
By Chris.Mann
03rd Oct 2019 10:37

The seeds of doubt seem to have been set? And there's a perfectly acceptable reason, for the anonymous post.

Over the years, I've had many run ins, with a variety of people. What I've found is that; if there's mutual respect, the "disagreement" can often be "fixed" and, everyone moves on.

In this scenario and, due to the professional environment, I think the seeds of doubt may well have already overwhelmed the situation and, you need to decide if you should find pastures new. You can't spend the rest of your life, checking over your shoulder. You're obviously a principled individual and you need to deploy self-respect, which I'd have thought would lead you to the same conclusion.

Perhaps move up the High Street and find a more respectable firm? Or, take the plunge and branch out yourself?

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By Roland195
03rd Oct 2019 10:48

If you are having "many disagreements" with the partners you have no future in that firm and would be better served moving to one more inline with your professional values or setting out on your own. This is the only way in which you get the final word on these matters however , when you are a partner or principal responsible for developing new business, paying salaries & overheads and generally just trying to earn a crust in the accounting profession of today, don't be surprised if you find that your priorities change.

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By Bob Loblaw
03rd Oct 2019 12:25

I left. I had the misfortune to spend time in a small practice when I was younger, slimmer and naive to the point embarrassment. The owner (who I won't refer to as an accountant - it would be a generous stretch) was incredibly secretive about their level of qualification (they would sign off proof of income forms for banks who asked for qualifications as ACCA - but leave the membership number field blank. When the bank questioned it, they'd be advised that the membership had temporarily lapsed. You can imagine how that went down...)

They were also incredibly pig headed and would not hesitate to bend the rules to keep a client happy. If you questioned their thinking they could never actually provide the legislation behind what they were doing. They'd instead push the line that "they'd done it before" and it didn't get questioned that time. It took me more time that I'd like to admit to get out of there because I kept thinking that surely it would get better.

It's a lot easier said than done in some instances for you just to walk out and find another job, but if you think they're knowingly applying incorrect practices, you need to leave. If you can't leave right away, keep notes of every conversation you have with them where you're discussing issues that arise. When it goes [***] up the [***] will roll downhill and you need to make sure it doesn't land on you.

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By Mr_awol
03rd Oct 2019 12:37

What kind of issues are you disagreeing on?

If not grey technical areas then what? Allowing expenses that are blatantly not allowable = I'd agree with the posters above about you working for some cowboy partners. At this stage though I think that might be quite a conclusion to jump to.

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By Poltergeist
03rd Oct 2019 15:18

In the good old days the time honoured method of "pistols at dawn" sorted all disagreements.

Sounds to me as if things have gone too far. We have no idea who is in the right, if anyone, but this sounds like a situation where trust and respect has broken down, and the only answer is to leave and go elsewhere.

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By ireallyshouldknowthisbut
03rd Oct 2019 17:14

I took on a client recently from a reasonable sized firm (about 10-12 staff from what i can make out)

Apparently out client has been told to "claim everything with a receipt" down to bus fares which appeared to be the clients daughter going out with her mates on a Saturday night from the time on the tickets.

Same daughter's pockets money was also being paid via PAYE, and had been told the school fees could be "put through". Client had booked a holiday which was included as a business expense.

My client stated this seemed "at odds with the advice from the former accountant" and was uncomfortable, hence the move.

The owners's background? Ex HMRC.

The whole thing seems to be constructed on the basis of what would be queried, as opposed to what might be right.

I imagine firms like this can go years without a tax investigation, and then insufficient numbers of them such that HMRC will not twig that all the clients are putting through dodgy figures.

If sufficient numbers of investigations were undertaken, ie every firm gets 3 or 4 a year minimum, this stuff would just not happen as HMRC would roll through the whole firm and put 'em out of business.

I think I have had ONE tax investigation for a limited company client out of about 100 we file a year in the past 10 years. So less then 1 in 1000!

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Replying to ireallyshouldknowthisbut:
paddle steamer
By DJKL
03rd Oct 2019 17:25

Your ratio sounds typical. Over similar period I had one vat visit (on registration) re a refund (stock on hand upon registration, no issue) one individual tax return letter (missed a PT employment), one aspect re a pension contribution (nothing to see , claim was fine) and that is it. No full enquiries.

I appreciate when I worked full time in practice in the late 1980s through the 1990s we had more clients (2 partners, 5 accounts/tax staff, about 400 clients) but back then we would have had about 3-4 full enquiries/ HMRC significant accounts queries a year)

We also certainly had far more frequent vat visits.

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Replying to DJKL:
By ireallyshouldknowthisbut
04th Oct 2019 09:40

We have had a couple of VAT questions, but more along the lines of "what is this huge rebate?" which have been fair enough, but no actual proper investigations.

Also had a few "missing data" SA enquiries, but that is just client not telling us stuff and HMRC reacting, as opposed to a proper enquiry.

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Replying to ireallyshouldknowthisbut:
Oaklea
By Chris.Mann
04th Oct 2019 10:08

"If sufficient numbers of investigations were undertaken, ie every firm gets 3 or 4 a year minimum, this stuff would just not happen as HMRC would roll through the whole firm and put 'em out of business."

It must be a simple fact of a (complete) lack of resources?

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Replying to ireallyshouldknowthisbut:
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By SouthCoastAcc
04th Oct 2019 10:10

Quote:

I took on a client recently from a reasonable sized firm (about 10-12 staff from what i can make out)

Apparently out client has been told to "claim everything with a receipt" down to bus fares which appeared to be the clients daughter going out with her mates on a Saturday night from the time on the tickets.

Same daughter's pockets money was also being paid via PAYE, and had been told the school fees could be "put through". Client had booked a holiday which was included as a business expense.

My client stated this seemed "at odds with the advice from the former accountant" and was uncomfortable, hence the move.

The owners's background? Ex HMRC.

The whole thing seems to be constructed on the basis of what would be queried, as opposed to what might be right.

I imagine firms like this can go years without a tax investigation, and then insufficient numbers of them such that HMRC will not twig that all the clients are putting through dodgy figures.

If sufficient numbers of investigations were undertaken, ie every firm gets 3 or 4 a year minimum, this stuff would just not happen as HMRC would roll through the whole firm and put 'em out of business.

I think I have had ONE tax investigation for a limited company client out of about 100 we file a year in the past 10 years. So less then 1 in 1000!

We used to get VAT visits once every 3 years

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By B Roberts
04th Oct 2019 14:22

Working in industry I always expected a VAT visit every 3 years and a PAYE compliance visit every 4 years or so.

We have had one of each in the last 9 years.

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By JD
04th Oct 2019 17:44

Leave quietly and in one piece, if you cannot live with it.

Don't go down the whistleblowing route without taking lots of advice first and know that it will be you that will get ripped apart. When the xxit hits the fan, neither the law or the professional bodies will protect you.

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