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How will HMRC's IT cope/store all the MTD data

How will HMRCs IT systems cope with and store all the MTD information

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I believe there are over 2 million VAT registered businesses in the UK. How on earth are HMRC's systems going to cope with, store and analyse basically all the accounting information of over 2 million businesses when it flows in for MTD. How big a computer will they need?

Given that HMRC seem incapable of inputting and updating their records for self assessment tax returns (there seems to be lots of information on SATRs that HMRC ignore or just don't update their records with). For example there are still self employed people for whom HMRC do not credit Class 2 NI even though its reported on tax returns, they often don't update addresses even if the appropriate box is ticked etc etc .....

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By jcace
19th Jun 2019 12:27

Perhaps all that information never will flow through, like MTD for VAT, where just the 9 boxes are uploaded.

Thanks (1)
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By Wanderer
19th Jun 2019 12:41

Of course they will cope, HMRC's systems are near perfect, you can check here:-
https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/hm-revenue-and-customs-service...
& you'll find there's almost never any problem other than planned downtime!

Thanks (3)
Replying to Wanderer:
By kenny achampong
19th Jun 2019 14:24

What, it doesnt mention that when you try to log into your agent services account, ie step 1, the link is broken, and it takes you off to the 'set up an agent services account' that you did weeks ago ?

The whole thing is up the spout.

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Replying to kenny achampong:
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By Wanderer
19th Jun 2019 14:37

What it also never mentions is the dozens of times per year that the systems are down.
And also the hundreds of problems similar to your example.
As I've said before if any commercial organisation set their systems up the same way as HMRC's they would soon go bust.

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By ireallyshouldknowthisbut
19th Jun 2019 13:00

Eh? What MTD data?

For VAT its the same boxes as now that are transferred.

The only practical difference is not using HMRC's nice little portal, but having to pay a third party provider to use theirs.

Thanks (5)
Replying to ireallyshouldknowthisbut:
RLI
By lionofludesch
19th Jun 2019 13:06

ireallyshouldknowthisbut wrote:

Eh? What MTD data?

For VAT its the same boxes as now that are transferred.

For now ......

The fact is that governments across the world are already doing this. Obviously, the governments in such places as Brazil, Italy and Russia, to name but three, are a lot better organised than the UK government.

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Replying to lionofludesch:
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By johnhemming
19th Jun 2019 17:47

SAF-T standard audit file - taxation is a creature of the OECD. Personally I think MTD is enough for the UK.

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By Duggimon
20th Jun 2019 12:51

Data storage is a solved problem to which HMRC can just buy a solution. The issue is the bespoke stuff they need made, like the software systems, which are poorly specified and so don't do what they're meant to once designed and built.

Youtube, for example, is all stored somewhere on servers, there's nothing particularly unwieldy about 2 million spreadsheets a quarter.

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By [email protected]
21st Jun 2019 10:28

I'd imagine we'll end up paying Amazon or another giant to kindly store it. They have been managing with this data pretty well so far though, no increase yet!

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By vinylnobbynobbs
21st Jun 2019 10:33

It will all be printed off and stored in a warehouse.

Thanks (4)
Replying to vinylnobbynobbs:
RLI
By lionofludesch
21st Jun 2019 12:02

vinylnobbynobbs wrote:

It will all be printed off and stored in a warehouse.

With a back up copy in another warehouse.

Thanks (4)
Morph
By kevinringer
21st Jun 2019 12:22

MTD for VAT transmits exactly the same 9 boxes (plus name, number and period dates) that have always been submitted. So there's no extra data currently. Personally I feel MTD should have been expanded to include white space and attachments so we could submit large input tax claims (eg property) instead of having to wait for a HMRC inspection every time a client has a large input tax claim.

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Replying to kevinringer:
RLI
By lionofludesch
21st Jun 2019 12:34

kevinringer wrote:

MTD for VAT transmits exactly the same 9 boxes (plus name, number and period dates) that have always been submitted. So there's no extra data currently.

At the risk of sounding like an echo - no extra data at the moment.

If you think it'll stay that way, think again.

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By NewACA
21st Jun 2019 13:07

There is likely a big problem to come in July/August.

HMRC uses the new government centralised API system. So anyone applying for DVLA car tax, applying for a new passport, and filing their VAT Return are now all using the same one API service and server(s).

For this reason, HMRC have limited MTD software providers to filing no more than 150 VAT Returns a minute, which is way too low for the big software providers I would imagine. This is the default, and HMRC say it can be increased on request, but will only accept requests if they are at/over the limit. The problem is software providers then (under HMRC normal time scales) will have problems with their software for days or weeks (at peak times) until HMRC then increases their limit...

So if you are using a big software provider, don't even think about trying to file a VAT Return on 7th August (unless its close to midnight)...

Thanks (2)
Replying to NewACA:
RLI
By lionofludesch
21st Jun 2019 13:11

Who would have thought there'd be problems uploading zillabytes of data over tinterweb ?

So how do they cope in Brazil, Italy and Russia ?

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Replying to NewACA:
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By johnhemming
21st Jun 2019 17:55

NewACA wrote:

HMRC have limited MTD software providers to filing no more than 150 VAT Returns a minute,


It is a bit more complex than this. HMRC have a rate limit on API calls. To file a VAT return you need to
a) Ask HMRC what obligations are outstanding
b) Submit a return against one of those obligations
and ideally
c) Ask HMRC what they now have to make sure they have what you think you have sent.

That is three api calls to submit a vat return.

It is not unreasonable for HMRC to aim to have some limit on this because MTD providers can vary in their efficiency of the usage of APIs and it does give HMRC a tool to manage this load.

Thanks (2)
Replying to johnhemming:
RLI
By lionofludesch
22nd Jun 2019 09:52

johnhemming wrote:

a) Ask HMRC what obligations are outstanding

I take it that HMRC expect to be in a position to respond within 63 working days or something similar.

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By North East Accountant
21st Jun 2019 16:37

They have a big computer system already called Connect.

HMRC have been very quietly constantly improving this system and once they get all transactions in the fun will really start.

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Replying to North East Accountant:
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By vinylnobbynobbs
21st Jun 2019 16:43

North East Accountant wrote:

They have a big computer system already called Connect.

HMRC have been very quietly constantly improving this system and once they get all transactions in the fun will really start.


Like they have improved the self assessment system?
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Replying to vinylnobbynobbs:
RLI
By lionofludesch
22nd Jun 2019 09:49

Not to mention all the other stuff they've bu99ered about with.

Here's an improvement suggestion - get some more staff working for you.

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By SuePos
25th Jun 2019 20:09

Has anyone experience a delay in receiving a VAT Reclaim from HMRC for their April 2019 MTD VAT submission?
We submitted our MTD Reclaim return on the 9/5/19 and normally would expect the funds in our bank account by the end of May at the latest. To date we have not received it. HMRC Helpline are saying that a normal payment after authorisation is 2-3 working days but with the migration to MTD it is taking 10-14 working days. We have had that time pass and as of yesterday they are saying it could take another 10-14 days! What has gone wrong?
We have submitted May 2019 Reclaim the first week of June 2019, when are we likely to receive that repay? It has cost a lot of money and time to put the necessary MTD accounting modules in place. This is crippling our cash flow and affecting the supply chain.
What has been your experience?

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Replying to SuePos:
Morph
By kevinringer
26th Jun 2019 09:13

Other accountants have told me they have clients who have not had their refunds. I have also been told that some delays have occurred for client who have not even signed up for MTD. I act for a lot of farmers who receive refunds and have spoken to many about the delays but none of them have experienced delays.

What software are you using? I ask because I notice in Sage desktop when you prepare a VAT return for, say, April 2019 then go to submit, there are several new screens one of which has a pull down list of periods and it does not default to the period that you've just prepared a VAT return. I was prepare VAT returns for a monthly client and though the return had been prepared for April 2019 and I hit submit, the pulldown list later in the process selected June 2019 by default. If I left the default it would have submitted June for which no data had been input at the time. I suspect some businesses may have not noticed the pulldown list and inadvertently sent in a blank June return instead which means HMRC haven't received the April figures thus no refund.

MTD is a mess.

Thanks (1)
Replying to kevinringer:
RLI
By lionofludesch
26th Jun 2019 11:20

kevinringer wrote:

MTD is a mess.

Well, I'm just a humble sole practitioner not a high-flying HMRC software whizz-kid, but I saw this coming.

As did 95.1% of the profession.

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Replying to kevinringer:
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By johnhemming
26th Jun 2019 11:47

For monthly submitters there can be two open VAT obligations at the same time. Hence people do need to be careful to submit the right one.

It is worth getting software that enables you to query the APIs to find out what is on HMRC's servers. It saves a lot of time on the phone.

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