In or Out?

In or Out?

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Cannot decide. Confused!

Replies (83)

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Time for change
By Time for change
22nd Jun 2016 09:46

Remain.
No (factual) evidence that to leave would be the better option. For me, that is.

Thanks (3)
By Democratus
22nd Jun 2016 09:55

I need two votes - my business head says stay in, my constitutional head says leave....
Dunno ...and probably won't until i am looking at the ballot paper and need to place my X.

The remain side have not given any real positives for remaining other than the "free" access to a massive market and the rest of their arguments are based on fear and lies.

The brexit team have no real knowledge of what a leave would actually do for the economy either, however they are to an extent providing some positive reasons to leave. However i am uncomfortable with aligning myself with some of the more extreme elements on the leave side.

Hey Ho - it probably doesn't matter in the long term to use a Keynesian argument as in the long term I'll be dead.

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By killer33
22nd Jun 2016 09:56

A few weeks I was planning to vote leave, however , I'm now going to vote remain.

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Locutus of Borg
By Locutus
22nd Jun 2016 10:38

Still Leave for me, although our decision may end up being academic.

Firstly the failing Euro could ultimately bring about the destruction of the EU - probably in the next recession or the one after that. The Greek debt can be written off, the debt of Italy, Spain and France cannot. It is simply too big.

Secondly the UK referendum (whatever the result) may have opened a Pandora's box across the EU. Denmark, Sweden and the Netherlands are healthily Eurosceptic and I was surprised to learn just how hostile to the EU the French people are. When one country leaves and survives, others will inevitably follow.

If we were already out then we would be crazy to join. Although there will be some pain in leaving, I would rather be doing it now before the EU collapses.

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By cathygrimmer
23rd Jun 2016 22:19

Having examined the facts (as far as I can - given how few facts there are!), I've come to the conclusion that the issues I'm worried about won't be resolved by leaving and could be made worse so I've decided to vote remain. Much as in the Scottish referendum, I find the assurances that we'll be able to negotiate good deals if we leave are not supported by any evidence - and experience tells me that rose-tinted glasses are unreliable ophthalmic aids to clear vision. If we're such a major and important power, how come we don't have more influence within the EU?
I've tried not to consider any short term benefits for me personally of either option but what I think will benefit the younger and future generations.

Cathy

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Replying to cathygrimmer:
Locutus of Borg
By Locutus
22nd Jun 2016 11:09

At the end of a 2 year negotiation, I expect we would end up with an agreement that existing EU nationals could stay where they are. This would comply with International Law and there would be little enthusiasm on either side for mass deportations, as it makes no economic or humanitarian sense. Reciprocal healthcare arrangements would probably continue to apply.

As for trade, I suspect we would end up with a Turkey-style customs union. If the EU wants to apply WTO tariffs (which are not themselves high compared to the 1950s) then the UK would end up collecting far more in tariffs on imports to the UK than exporters would lose on exports to the EU. I would imagine that the UK government could simply compensate the exporters for the tariffs they had to pay.

Perhaps I am being over simplistic. I wish I could have heard more about the practicalities of leaving and a bit less about immigration.

One thing that I agree with you on is how messy it will be for Scotland when it eventually decides to divorce, given that they are so heavily integrated into the UK. Brexit would be a walk in the park for the Scots, compared to what full independence would be like.

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By Visitor
22nd Jun 2016 10:40

Leave. The choice is stark. We become a minor state in the United States of Europe, with no say over our way of life, or, we again become an independent sovereign state with the 5th biggest economy in the world.

Cameron, Corbyn, and Osborne (the names of other "remain" liars are available on request), have been proven to be liars. Last November Cameron made a speech saying that Britain would be fine whichever way it voted, now he is predicting armageddon if we leave. This week he claimed that Turkey would not join the EU for decades, yet the Prime Minister of Turkey states that Cameron is working to get Turkey into the EU within 5 years.

The remain camp say we don't know what will happen if we leave, but they cannot, or will not, tell us what will happen if we remain.

We can be governed by MPs we elect and accountable to us, or, we can be governed by unelected bureaucrats in Brussels.

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Out of my mind
By runningmate
22nd Jun 2016 10:50

There was a revealing interview on Newsnight last night with a Turkish diplomat who said that Turkey had been deceived by Cameron whom they had been led to believe was their "best friend" in Europe & working towards EU entry for them. He was horrified by Cameron's duplicity.

A good sensible article on the merits is THIS ARTICLE by the Conservative Lord Ashcroft. Worth a read.
RM

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paddle steamer
By DJKL
22nd Jun 2016 11:00

Well, it really depends whether we are discussing this website or the EU?

Regarding this website I await internal reform, I do not like it as it is and am beginning to lose faith in its ability to self reform.

Regarding the EU I await internal reform, I do not like it as it is and am beginning to lose faith in its ability to self reform.

On a vote to permanently leave either, I am also in pretty much the same place for each.

More seriously re the EU ,and having now had a chance to do more reading (read the B of E October 2015 report on EU stabilisation and the more recent Treasury "considered" view paper) whilst the economic case is not as starkly in favour of Remain as has been indicated by Remain, there are uncertainties, on any basis I can determine it is hard, economically ,to look beyond Remain- it does make the better case-certainly shorter term. (As all accountants know longer term forecasts are more prone to divergence anyway)

On sovereignty and control I do tend towards Leave, I am also not persuaded by the easier to reform whilst within argument; whilst past performance is no guarantee re the future, the EU Project does not yet appear to wish to reform itself.

I also do see some possible clear and present dangers re Remain, which ought to be considered, there is always the danger that not doing something whilst feeling safer is more dangerous, so a few risk observations:

1. If the Eurozone survives and we are not a part of it (thank god) EU future policy will likely favour the majority section within, so EU policy looks like it will continue to run away from what I perceive as the UK's interests towards Eurozone interests ,and our influence with the EU will likely remain weak.

2.If the Eurozone does not survive then one of the main risks to the UK appears to rest on how we are interrelated with the project for Banking Union; I am not totally clear what our fiscal position will be in future , the Bank of England October 2015 report covers, to a degree, the closer link/ convergence of BU, but given we will not be a Eurozone country not sure how much we might need to pay. (Never trust an opt out- there is no such thing as a free lunch)

3. Whilst not a given re membership ,there is a quasi argument that Remain will tend for the UK to have a higher EU trade component whilst Leave will have us lifting our eyes further afield. The EU does have the too many eggs in one basket risk, whilst it is composed of various countries the slightly disguises the risk, of in the main exporting against a single currency. Whilst I think our single biggest export market is the USA (Dollar risk) the EU , if Eurozone countries are taken together , is bigger (Euro risk) ,so we are, irrespective of adopting the Euro, very heavily linked to the Euro and the Eurozone countries.

4. The low growth rates in the Eurozone are scary, high youth unemployment in Eurozone is scary, if these continue yet we still concentrate nearly 50% of our exports into these markets, we may get dragged down.

So like possibly 75% of the havering population (and havering with its dual meaning is the perfect word re the Referendum) it is boiling down to equating economic price (or at least higher risk/uncertainty) with self determination.

There is also the difficulty re selfishness, I doubt either choice will have significant impact on me but it will on my children. They will likely (re conversations to date) both vote Remain so ought I to back their wishes ?(Their Self Determination)

This needs to be weighed against their lack of knowledge re economics (though they do know a lot more than me re most other subjects) but if I follow that argument then I am no better than Remain (Look at all our experts)
who have rested most of their argument on similar premise.

If the Referendum was on who has run the better campaign I think Leave win that contest, though some of their campaign has been woeful and there are so many individuals within Leave that are really not my sort of people. (A few I would not give the time of day)

The only positive I can take from the process is that whilst I disagree with about 75% of his political views I have developed a grudging respect for Jeremy Corbyn. He talks with people not at them, he conducts a dialogue, he is prepared to voice uncertainties/ probabilities/ possibilities, and as such he is closer to the mindset of the undecided than the rest of the talking heads.

If the campaigns had been run by both sides in similar manner we could have congratulated ourselves, instead we have demonstrated to the world that for reasoned debate we are these days just slightly better than the USA.

So , daft number of words later I am going to have to sit upstairs tonight with a cigar and a malt and decide something, sorry I am really no help.

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By the_fishmonger
22nd Jun 2016 11:28

Who cares?

Whichever way you vote it won't stop the floodings every year, the summer being grey and cloudy or make the England football team successful.

FWIW If it was done right, I reckon a USofE would be fantastic. It mostly works in the USofA and there is no reason it couldn't be used here (they have Hawaii, USE has UK and Iceland!).

We might be able to get rid of UK HMRC and replace it with something better outside of the asylum

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Glenn Martin
By Glenn Martin
22nd Jun 2016 11:40

After been undecided for many weeks and I firmly in the remain camp.

Coming out is just too much of a risk. The North East is the biggest exporting region in UK and we need that to remain.

Whilst I am sure we would survive if we came out, we need to thrive not survive.

For me the problems with the Brexit lot is total lack of what will actually happen and too much could, might and maybe about their campaign.

Also Farage seems to think he will be able to just go and do deals with China and India, as he is clearly a racist I hardly feel the governments of these countries will welcome him with open arms after he has rounded every one up who is not anglo saxon and shipped them home.

We need stability for prosperity I am also uncomfortable with the rise of nationalisim within the country as I feel it is a massive backwards step and not a society I want to be a part of.

So In all the way but push for reform, reform reform.

Thanks (4)
Replying to Glennzy:
Out of my mind
By runningmate
22nd Jun 2016 12:04

Glennzy wrote:

So In all the way but push for reform, reform reform.


We have been in the EU for 40 years. If we haven't been able to reform it in the last 40 years what makes you think we could reform it in the future?

The EU is certainly moving in the direction of Ever Closer Union & - opt outs or no opt outs - we are inevitably being dragged along if we remain a member. Time to Leave.
RM

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Replying to runningmate:
Glenn Martin
By Glenn Martin
22nd Jun 2016 12:15

Hopefully a narrow remain vote would send shock waves that we a pretty unhappy, and how important we are to whole process, it should allow leverage to start getting a better deal. It worked for the Scottish. Not sure if Cameron is the statesman to do the job, but he is all we have.

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Replying to Glennzy:
paddle steamer
By DJKL
22nd Jun 2016 12:37

Irrespective of result what probability he holds onto his job?

Have just been re reading a Flashman book (the first) where in Kabul a fellow officer gets cut into 86 parts; as I understand it there are 100 knives out for DC so I cannot see his survival. I also think GO has killed any chance of picking up the crown.

Methinks his successor will be none of the up front players (Gove/Johnson etc) but someone who comes through on the rails unseen. (Hands a little cleaner)

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Replying to Glennzy:
Out of my mind
By runningmate
22nd Jun 2016 13:19

I don't believe anyone in the EU / other member governments will be interested in listening to further whingeing from the UK after the referendum if Remain win (even by one solitary vote). We have blown our only chance at renegotiation inside the EU.
RM

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Replying to Glennzy:
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By Duhamel
22nd Jun 2016 12:07

Genuine question - how is Farage clearly a racist?

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Replying to Duhamel:
By petersaxton
22nd Jun 2016 20:01

Farage isn't a racist. I don't see any evidence that he is. I don't see how anybody can say he is "clearly" a racist. He wants a points system for immigration and he doesn't want any economic migrants (subject to the above) from the rest of the world to be able to enter the UK. How is any of that racist. I think it's an example of the disinformation from the Remain side - anybody who thinks immigration is too high is branded a racist.

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Replying to petersaxton:
By ShirleyM
23rd Jun 2016 15:04

Farage is not racist or xenophobic or a bigot. He is demonised merely for putting the needs of the UK, and it's people, at the forefront.

Patriotism is also branded as xenophobia or bigotry.

Political correctness has succeeded in shutting down all opposition and discussion of the problems we face! It is now considered a shameful thing to be proud of one's country.

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Replying to ShirleyM:
RLI
By lionofludesch
23rd Jun 2016 16:14

ShirleyM wrote:
<

Patriotism is also branded as xenophobia or bigotry.

"Patriotism is the root cause of all wars."

I forget who said that. Might have been Nigel Farage for all I know......

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Replying to lionofludesch:
By ShirleyM
23rd Jun 2016 19:31

I don't understand this. Why has patriotism become a dirty word? I think the UK is one of the best countries in the world. Why has it become politically incorrect to be proud of your country? Would you say the same to the Swiss, or the Germans?

I don't think patriotism is a cause of war. War is caused by people wanting to have power over other countries, and patriotism cannot be blamed for that.

I know why the EU want to stamp out patriotism, as it will hinder creation of the superstate. Can you think of another reason?

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Replying to ShirleyM:
RLI
By lionofludesch
23rd Jun 2016 20:44

You're entitled to your view, of course.

It's not a recent quote. It's at least 50 years old and probably substantially older, so Political Correctness has nothing to do with it.

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Replying to ShirleyM:
Tornado
By Tornado
23rd Jun 2016 16:53

I have had a look at my client list and I find that I have clients who are from or have family connections to -

India
Pakistan
Bangladesh
Ireland
Wales
Italy
Greece
France
Portugal
Spain
Ghana
England
Ecuador
Austria
Singapore
and more

Some of these connections go back over 60 years.

My family have connections to

Latvia
Lithuania
Poland

I have never turned anyone away professionally on the grounds of race, colour, religion or gender and will not ever do that. I do not consider myself to be a racist.

As far as I can see, the UKIP poster may be hard hitting and shocking to some but to others it is simply highlighting the facts. That does not make it racist and those that try to whip up hatred by inappropriately shouting racist, should be very careful about what they saying. Personal emotion may take over very easily and we need to think before we speak. To some, it is those that shout racist who are the real racists.

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Replying to petersaxton:
Glenn Martin
By Glenn Martin
23rd Jun 2016 17:21

petersaxton wrote:

Farage isn't a racist. I don't see any evidence that he is. I don't see how anybody can say he is "clearly" a racist. He wants a points system for immigration and he doesn't want any economic migrants (subject to the above) from the rest of the world to be able to enter the UK. How is any of that racist. I think it's an example of the disinformation from the Remain side - anybody who thinks immigration is too high is branded a racist.

He wants a point based system we have had one for years I was registered sponser for 10 years in care homes days.

Bringing a nurse from India was not an easy process and is heavily regulated.

He wants to close our borders, they are closed we have a dirty great sea around it. Stopping illegal entrants is a resource thing not about been in EU, the government cut all staff on ports and entry points.

If we sent all the immigrants home who would do the work? They largely only do minimum wage jobs. Nothing stopping UK staff doing those jobs, simple fact is they dont want to. An employer would take a UK worker over any immigrant all day long. The fact the Polish get work is that UK staff dont wont to do minimum wage jobs in healthcare etc.

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Replying to Glennzy:
By ShirleyM
23rd Jun 2016 17:43

That's the whole point, Glennzy. The uncontrolled immigration from the EU means they have to be even stricter on non-EU immigration to keep the numbers lower.

Obviously the government in power will decide the criteria, but I heard Farage recommend they must have a job, speak English, have health insurance and no criminal record. That is much easier than the current restrictions and completely fair, in my view.

Absolutely nobody has said that anyone already in the country, that has entered legally, will be deported. That is just scaremongering. Likewise with Brits abroad.

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Replying to Duhamel:
Francois
By Francois Badenhorst
23rd Jun 2016 10:17

Duhamel wrote:

Genuine question - how is Farage clearly a racist?

Standing, smug faced, in front of a poster of desperate civilians fleeing war - much like they did in WW2 - and emblazoning BREAKING POINT over it is racist.

It's that simple guys.

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Replying to Duhamel:
Francois
By Francois Badenhorst
23rd Jun 2016 10:17

Duhamel wrote:

Genuine question - how is Farage clearly a racist?

Standing, smug faced, in front of a poster of desperate civilians fleeing war - much like they did in WW2 - and emblazoning BREAKING POINT over it is racist.

It's that simple guys.

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Replying to Francois Badenhorst:
Out of my mind
By runningmate
23rd Jun 2016 10:33

Francois Badenhorst wrote:

Duhamel wrote:

Genuine question - how is Farage clearly a racist?

Standing, smug faced, in front of a poster of desperate civilians fleeing war - much like they did in WW2 - and emblazoning BREAKING POINT over it is racist.

It's that simple guys.


You should read the poster. It says "Breaking point. The EU has failed us all. We must break free of the EU and take back control of our borders. Leave the European Union on 23 June X".
The reference to "us all" I read as including the people in the photo.
RM
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Replying to runningmate:
RLI
By lionofludesch
23rd Jun 2016 20:47

Or the people in the poster could be "them" and not "us".

Open to interpretation, isn't it ? You can make it mean what you want it to mean.

That's politics.

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Replying to Francois Badenhorst:
By petersaxton
23rd Jun 2016 13:09

I'm not sure I think they are genuinely "fleeing war". If they were why don't they stop "fleeing" when they reach safety rather than head to more prosperous countries?
I think they are looking for a rich country.

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By ireallyshouldknowthisbut
22nd Jun 2016 12:34

Blimey, my faith in my fellow accountants is restored
I was getting a bit peaked with being more of less the only person wanting to stay in a month to so back despite what I saw as no logical evidence to back that up.

In that past month or so I have learned a lot more about how the EU works, and what might or might not actually happen if we leave. The answer to which is "nobody really knows, but its probably going to be a bumpy ride until we at least work out what leave actually means"

I have also learned that our political class simply doesn't "get" how to talk to the public, the vast majority of whom are not nearly at thick as they seem to assume. No wonder we hold them in such low esteem.

The bad news is that there seems to be a lot more racism and xenophobia bubbling under the surface that I had imagined. I thought we as a country were better than that.

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By MBK
22nd Jun 2016 13:15

Have just read the Lord Ashcroft article that runningmate points to.

It puts very eloquently what I have thought from the start, which is:-

1: It seems to me to be undeniable that leaving carries with it a medium / long term "prize" in terms of putting us in charge of our own destiny instead of that destiny being substantially determined by others who don't have the same ambitions as us.

2: It's just a question of whether any turmoil (that nobody can predict with accuracy or certainty) is worth it to get to the prize.

For me, the answer is that it is worth any turmoil there might be - so for that simple reason I will vote leave. But I respect the views of anyone who doesn't agree with my assessment.

The economic argument (in the long run) is hogwash. We are the 5th largest economy now - but we were also the 5th largest economy 40 years ago when we joined. So far, therefore, the EU hasn't done anything to improve our economy relative to others.

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Replying to MBK:
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By neiltonks
22nd Jun 2016 15:04

"So far, therefore, the EU hasn't done anything to improve our economy relative to others."
True, but then again it hasn't adversely affected it, either.

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Replying to neiltonks:
RLI
By lionofludesch
23rd Jun 2016 08:31

neiltonks wrote:

"So far, therefore, the EU hasn't done anything to improve our economy relative to others."
True, but then again it hasn't adversely affected it, either.

Why bother then ? It makes no difference either way - why the huge debate ?

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By SteveHa
22nd Jun 2016 13:31

Out, before we are sucked so deep into the bureaucratic, undemocratic, unaccountable fraud that is the EU (and I use the term fraud advisedly, why else would they not publish audited accounts, ever).

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By chunkycat
22nd Jun 2016 13:40

Firstly, I am a practising accountant. But, as a 65yr old Englishman, it seems to me that many people seem to have short memories. In the 20th century we fought 2 wars against the Germans in order to remain as free as we are....
..... yet Germany now 'runs' the EEC - they have won the 'third' War in Europe' by stealth !!
THEY ARE NOT OUR 'FRIENDS' NOR ARE THEY OUR 'ALLIES'.

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Replying to chunkycat:
By mwngiol
22nd Jun 2016 13:56

Actually we didn't fight the first World War to remain free. Just saying.

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Replying to chunkycat:
Glenn Martin
By Glenn Martin
22nd Jun 2016 14:19

They do make good cars though.

I think the dislike of Germans is because in actual fact they are very similar to us.

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Replying to Glennzy:
paddle steamer
By DJKL
22nd Jun 2016 18:34

Glennzy wrote:

They do make good cars though..

Maybe, but Mr Kipling makes exceedingly good cakes.

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Replying to chunkycat:
By ireallyshouldknowthisbut
22nd Jun 2016 15:14

65? Blimey, you sure hold a grudge. The war was ended by 6 years before you were even born.

I think the world has moved on a teeny tiny bit since then. Or at least the rest of it had.

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paddle steamer
By DJKL
22nd Jun 2016 14:55

My one certainty:

If the UK electorate had been offered a system whereby if x people called for it (x being a very high number I imagine) the UK government would be obliged, at that point, to call a referendum on EU membership, then imho Remain would have romped home this time.

A large number of people I think would have given the EU the benefit of the doubt if they thought they had choice later if things did not follow their preferred / anticipated path.

But for those that have doubts re the EU this chance appears likely to be never repeated and as such they are to a degree being forced into deciding now.

The fact that x% of our elected representatives think one way yet I expect the electorate will demonstrate that possibly 2X% think otherwise is to me alarming.

I am not a believer in government by referendum but I think, in some circumstances, the electorate deserves their say notwithstanding the personal preferences of their MPs; the ability to call referendums on certain issues ought to be handed to the people when appropriate support is demonstrated (petition)

If our political parties do not get the point maybe we should in future withhold our votes from them, I would love a parliament full of independents. (wishful thinking)

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By neiltonks
22nd Jun 2016 15:01

Whichever way we vote, it's something of a leap into the unknown.

We've no real idea how the EU will evolve in future (the UK isn't the only country uneasy at the way things are, by any means) so if we stay in, we still face a period of change.

On the other hand, since no country has ever left the EU, all the discussion of the impact it would have is necessarily speculation. "Leave" say it would be the dawn of a golden age, "Remain" say it would cripple the country for a generation. I suspect the truth would be somewhere between these extremes, but there's no way of knowing for sure.

The debate has been largely negative and frankly xenophobic at times. Whether we leave or stay we'll still need to trade and form relationships with people from all nations afterwards, just as we do now. We already do almost 60% of our trade outside the EU so evidently being a member doesn't prevent us trading globally, as "Leave" imply.

As for immigration, one fact which is often overlooked is that there are far fewer unemployed people in the UK than there are immigrants, which suggests that without immigration there would be a labour shortage, which usually leads to higher wages and therefore higher inflation. Nevertheless, the social impact of immigration is considerable at the moment and some reduction in numbers would be welcome.

Another issue I have with the "Leave" lobby is that they seem to think we can walk away from the EU and then negotiate back all the aspects of membership which operate in our favour, which surely is a naive position to adopt. Why would the other countries want to do that? (and no, it's not because they can't survive without us, that's a ridiculously arrogant view).

So I'm still undecided. The EU is far from perfect but a "Leave" vote is a vote for uncertainty. What a choice we have to make!

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Replying to neiltonks:
By petersaxton
22nd Jun 2016 20:15

"As for immigration, one fact which is often overlooked is that there are far fewer unemployed people in the UK than there are immigrants, which suggests that without immigration there would be a labour shortage, which usually leads to higher wages and therefore higher inflation. "
I don't follow your logic. If wages rise there doesn't have to be higher inflation. Over the long term inflation is caused by an increase in the money supply.

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By Visitor
22nd Jun 2016 15:05

I keep hearing that we don't know what will happen if we leave, but of course we don't know what will happen if we stay either.

What we do know is that if we leave then whatever happens will be under our own control, whereas if we stay we will have zero control over what Brussels decides will happen.

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Out of my mind
By runningmate
22nd Jun 2016 15:46

The BBC report that European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker has told reporters in Brussels today:-
"British voters have to know there will be no kind of any negotiation. We have concluded a deal with the prime minister. He got the maximum he could receive, and we gave the maximum we could give, so there will be no kind of renegotiation".
So it looks like he has set his face firmly against any further reforms demanded by the UK.

So much for Cameron's claim that if we remain in further reform starts on Friday!
RM

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Replying to runningmate:
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By neiltonks
22nd Jun 2016 16:01

Does Juncker really believe the EU will be forever the same as it is today?? It's been evolving ever since its inception and will continue to do so.

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Replying to neiltonks:
Out of my mind
By runningmate
22nd Jun 2016 16:30

neiltonks wrote:

Does Juncker really believe the EU will be forever the same as it is today?? It's been evolving ever since its inception and will continue to do so.


Juncker is expressly addressing British voters & British requests for reform. He is telling us the EU cannot do anything further to accommodate the demands of the UK government.
Juncker's terms to the British electorate are capitulate or Leave.
RM
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Replying to neiltonks:
By Democratus
22nd Jun 2016 16:20

neiltonks wrote:

Does Juncker really believe the EU will be forever the same as it is today?? It's been evolving ever since its inception and will continue to do so.

Evolving - excellent word Neil.

Evolution is of course blind and can result in retrograde developments as much as advances. Take those animals which live in dark caves for instance - no need for eyesight so evolutionary pressures removes eyesight - compensates elsewhere to allow best fit for the environment.

Could we end up with no future votes if we stay in? Since we won't need votes we could perhaps be compensated some other way -may be by being given extra unelected members of the Commission!......

Not saying i am for or against anything mind you, it just struck me as i read your comment.

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Replying to runningmate:
By ireallyshouldknowthisbut
22nd Jun 2016 20:01

junker is idiot if he thinks that will help. There is one thing the British dont like, and that is being told what to do by someone from outside of the country.

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Replying to runningmate:
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By Comptable
23rd Jun 2016 20:48

Junker may have a very grand title and a very grand manner but he is just a civil servant.

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By John R
22nd Jun 2016 18:10

You are a sole practitioner earning £180K pa. Another firm has 6 partners and invites you to join as an equal partner. You are told that the existing partners currently earn £140K pa each. They say that although you will effectively earn a bit less, you will enjoy the benefits of cooperation between the partners and hopefully all the partners will benefit financially in the future as the practice grows. You like the idea and join. Over the next few years the employed practice manager (who is on £250K pa) suggests that additional partners should join as this will make the partnership more powerful. You are able to veto this but you feel that to do so might result in some bad feeling and possibly even accusations of prejudice so you agree. Several new partners who were only earning £100K pa previously have brought in their clients. You find that the partnership income has not actually grown overall, some partners are not pulling their weight and their client banks are actually losing the firm money. Your personal share of the profits is therefore diminishing in spite of your own client bank continuing to be profitable. You are advised by the practice manager that he would like to invite some further partners to join. The potential new partners only earn £80K pa currently. You are told that it is unlikely to happen immediately but at some indeterminate time in the future. You are also told that if you wish, you can leave the partnership. You can take your existing client bank with you but obviously some clients might prefer to stay with the partnership so there will be some uncertainty as to whether you will be better off financially.

Would you remain in the partnership or leave and become a sole practitioner again?

Thanks (1)

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