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Is the GG requirement the first step

Is the GG requirement to make an SEISS claim the first step to full MTD roll out for Income tax?

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Discuss.......

I have just been having a discussion and a colleague thinks this is what HMRC are aiming at here.... getting all Self employed clients signed up ready to roll out MTD for income tax sooner to get in faster tax receipts (Monthly/Quarterly) by 21/22 to pay for this whole situation.....

I did dismiss as them being a cynic, BUT the more i think about it.......

 

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Part on Dudes
By Partyondudes
06th May 2020 11:58

Sorry to reply to my own post but the chancellor did say when he announced the self employed support that "things would be very different afterwards as a result of this unprecedented help for the self employed" - maybe this is what he meant......

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Replying to Partyondudes:
By Duggimon
06th May 2020 15:19

By that he meant he's increasing national insurance for the self employed in line with the employed.

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By Laurence52
06th May 2020 12:43

Who knows but I think he has in mind to make the rates of national insurance for the employed and for the self-employed the same in due course.

From his speech:
"But I must be honest and point out that in devising this scheme – in response to many calls for support – it is now much harder to justify the inconsistent contributions between people of different employment statuses.

If we all want to benefit equally from state support, we must all pay in equally in future."
https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/chancellor-outlines-new-coronavir...

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RLI
By lionofludesch
06th May 2020 13:06

I agree - but he needs to look at the salary/dividend policies of small companies first.

If his masterplan is to just jack up the rate of self employed NI to 20% (or whatever), you're just going to have more companies and an even bigger problem.

Directors used to be treated as self employed. I'm not saying that's the answer but it demonstrates that the Government can move the goalposts so far that they're not even on the same field any more.

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RLI
By lionofludesch
06th May 2020 13:06

I agree - but he needs to look at the salary/dividend policies of small companies first.

If his masterplan is to just jack up the rate of self employed NI to 20% (or whatever), you're just going to have more companies and an even bigger problem.

Directors used to be treated as self employed. I'm not saying that's the answer but it demonstrates that the Government can move the goalposts so far that they're not even on the same field any more.

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Replying to lionofludesch:
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By sammerchant
11th May 2020 13:39

I would think that one way of taxing dividends differently from the present would be to distinguish between those over which the recipient has some degree of control over (such as from shares held in a close company and where the holding is greater than a stated percentage, say 10% of the issued share capital) and those held in other companies, including quoted ones over which the shareholder has no control.

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By Laurence52
06th May 2020 14:23

I'm guessing that the self=employed rate would be increased to the same level as the employee's rate - currently 12%.

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Replying to Laurence52:
RLI
By lionofludesch
06th May 2020 14:38

Laurence52 wrote:

I'm guessing that the self=employed rate would be increased to the same level as the employee's rate - currently 12%.

Rishi would still lose out on 13.8% secondary contributions from an employer so he still wouldn't be at parity.

Still - any rate we guess is purely speculation.

And it would still fuel folk switching to companies and paying even less.

Which is the real point.

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By legerman
06th May 2020 14:26

I certainly think there will be a rise in ni for self employed, but doubt it will be 20%. Possibly the same or near the class 1 level. For Company Directors I'm expecting to see some sort of minimum salary take compared to dividends eg 50% salary/50% dividends but whatever happens expect tax increases across the board as this borrowing has to be paid back at some stage. I just hope Rishi is savvy enough to realise that we still need the self employed/small companies to flourish at the same time, in order to stimulate the economy.

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By Duggimon
06th May 2020 15:21

The government gateway requirement for the SEISS is literally the only sensible way to manage it and if you tinfoil hatters want to suggest it's got a sinister motivation please do tell us the alternative method you expect should have been used instead?

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Replying to Duggimon:
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By lh3f9764bg1g
11th May 2020 10:29

Putting on my tinfoil hat as requested . . . . . I'd suggest that the alternative method that could and should have been used would have been to allow agents to submit the claims (for those clients for whom they hold 64-8 authorization). It is madness that we can submit claims for Furlough repayments into the tens of thousands (even hundreds of thousands, even millions if necessary) using our own credentials but we cannot submit claims for the self-employed. I really cannot see any security issues as any applicants will have submitted their last three Tax Returns. HMRC know who they are and what has been submitted previously and they know who we are and have granted us credentials.
Note:- driving licences issued in Northern Ireland cannot be used as I.D.
Note:- Republic of Ireland passports cannot be used as I.D.
Sheer madness and clearly discriminatory. Could none of the professional bodies have pointed this out to H.M.R.C. beforehand? Or were they not given the chance? Or maybe they just didn't notice there was a clear issue.

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Replying to lh3f9764bg1g:
RLI
By lionofludesch
11th May 2020 14:22

lh3f9764bg1g wrote:

Note:- driving licences issued in Northern Ireland cannot be used as I.D.
Note:- Republic of Ireland passports cannot be used as I.D.

I agree with you about Northern Ireland but it's hardly discriminatory if the Government decline to accept a document issued by a foreign state.

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Replying to lionofludesch:
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By lh3f9764bg1g
11th May 2020 15:59

With the greatest respect . . . . . I suspect that you may be unaware of the rights of Republic of Ireland citizens under the Common Travel Agreement. There are many, many Irish passport holders who have lived and worked in the U.K. for many years who will now be at a disadvantage. Furthermore - from a Northern Ireland point of view subjects of the U.K. who live in Northern Ireland are able to possess an Irish passport as an expression of their identity. It is those people (i.e. those in Northern Ireland) who, I feel, have been discriminated against. They tend to come from a Nationalist background. People coming from a Nationalist background tend to be Catholic so, to me there is a whiff of sectarian discrimination here. I am sure that it is unintentional but nevertheless some Catholics will feel that this is just another form of discrimination. Virtually no inhabitants of Northern Ireland will have a driving licence issued in G.B.. In any case . . . . . . what about all of the Polish, Latvian, Bulgarian, German, French, Italian (etc. etc.) residents of the U.K. who have not obtained a G.B. driving licence yet and who still hold a passport from their home country. HMG was happy to take their tax dollars - just like yours and mine. They were good enough to pay the state so the state should be good enough to pay them.

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Replying to lh3f9764bg1g:
RLI
By lionofludesch
11th May 2020 16:05

lh3f9764bg1g wrote:

With the greatest respect . . . . . I suspect that you may be unaware of the rights of Republic of Ireland citizens under the Common Travel Agreement.

Fairly up to date with the Ireland situation, having been married to a Belfast native for a number of years.

Still don't agree with you.

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Replying to lionofludesch:
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By lh3f9764bg1g
12th May 2020 08:03

But surely you would be a little miffed if your wife or husband (if they were self-employed) experienced significant difficulties simply because he or she held an RofI passport and/or a driving licence issued in Northern Ireland? Wouldn't you think it unfair that she or he had been disadvantaged?

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Replying to lh3f9764bg1g:
RLI
By lionofludesch
12th May 2020 08:50

Life's not fair.

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Replying to lionofludesch:
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By lh3f9764bg1g
12th May 2020 10:07

But our Government should be fair. All taxpayers deserve equal treatment - even if they are Northern Irish. Treating people differently because of their place of place of birth or cultural or ethnic background could be described as racism.

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Replying to lh3f9764bg1g:
RLI
By lionofludesch
12th May 2020 10:13

lh3f9764bg1g wrote:

But our Government should be fair.

A zillion tax cases disagree.

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Replying to lionofludesch:
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By lh3f9764bg1g
12th May 2020 11:29

There are none so blind as those who will not see.

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Replying to lh3f9764bg1g:
RLI
By lionofludesch
12th May 2020 11:35

lh3f9764bg1g wrote:

There are none so blind as those who will not see.

I was thinking the same.

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Replying to lionofludesch:
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By lh3f9764bg1g
12th May 2020 13:06

If that's addressed to me then I don't know what I'm supposed to see or have seen. No salient points have been put to me. Just flippant one liners. No relevant or cogent arguments. Or at least none, to my mind, that don't come across as xenophobic and sectarian.

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Replying to lh3f9764bg1g:
RLI
By lionofludesch
12th May 2020 13:15

OK - let me put it clearly.

I don't intend to engage with you in further debate.

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Replying to lionofludesch:
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By lh3f9764bg1g
12th May 2020 14:35

Well, at least you are clear about something. I concur with your suggestion regarding further debate. It would be pointless.

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Replying to lh3f9764bg1g:
By Silver Birch Accts
11th May 2020 15:47

R Bennyworth state in AccWeb webinar that HMRC stated that would have required a further two months work to involve Agents. The Government is terrified of fraud which sadly would include some unscrupulous agents. They may have seen this as away of clearing some debts or just take advantage. Many folk claiming Tax Credits will already have a Government Gateway account anyway.

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Replying to lh3f9764bg1g:
n/a
By Trish Baillie
12th May 2020 17:06

I was speaking to someone who was a retired HMRC IT person recently - he said it would have taken another three months at the minimum to add agent access to the SEISS claim facility. He said they would normally have tested the facility for at least 12 months before releasing it, so for once I am on HMRC's side here - speed was of the essence and HMRC have (hopefully) come up trumps.

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Replying to Trish Baillie:
RLI
By lionofludesch
12th May 2020 17:13

If they hadn't got the JRS up and running inside a month, I'd've believed that.

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By pauljohnston
11th May 2020 10:36

The calculation for the self-employed is much more complicated than furloughing hence HMRC wants to write the software to do it.

From what I see is needed for the self employed I am not sure what would be gained by agents being involved, except when hMRC get it wrong.

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Replying to pauljohnston:
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By lh3f9764bg1g
11th May 2020 11:43

I'm not suggesting that agents ought to calculate the claims . . . . merely that they should be allowed to submit the claims. Locking agents out will lead to some taxpayers being unable to claim because the routine is too complicated for them.

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Replying to lh3f9764bg1g:
Morph
By kevinringer
12th May 2020 14:40

lh3f9764bg1g wrote:

I'm not suggesting that agents ought to calculate the claims . . . . merely that they should be allowed to submit the claims. Locking agents out will lead to some taxpayers being unable to claim because the routine is too complicated for them.


I agree that it would have saved everyone a lot of grief if agents could claim but we are where we are. I've got plenty of clients who don't have a computer so I've told them to phone HMRC’s coronavirus helpline on 0800 024 1222 Monday to Friday, 8 am to 4 pm option 2 for SEISS then 2 for self-employed individuals and partners. Whether they'll get through is a different matter.
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Replying to kevinringer:
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By lh3f9764bg1g
12th May 2020 16:06

Thanks for that. Very useful.

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Replying to kevinringer:
Morph
By kevinringer
13th May 2020 13:41

FYI a client phoned HMRC's CV19 helpline just before 8 this morning. The person they spoke to said they'd phone back later. They did at 11 and took my client's details and processed the claim. So the number has capacity to handle the calls whereas the website has been overloaded and stopped claims (1 pm today). My client who phoned had a staggered start time of midday today but the CV19 helpline still processed their claim.

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Replying to pauljohnston:
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By djames
11th May 2020 13:50

Agents are involved whether HMRC like it or not. Client's have already authorised their agents to act on their behalf. It's ridiculous that clients now have to register for a government gateway, that they'll probably never use again, to claim this money, when it would have been a simple matter for the agent to claim it.

A sizeable percentage of my self-employment client base are either non-tech savvy, elderly, don't have broadband (or even a computer), or just don't see why they should interact with HMRC when they've authorised me to do so. Some clients will be fine, many more won't. I've already lost over 20 hours since the announcement last week explaining to clients that they've got to do this themselves, and am destined to lose many more hours over the coming weeks trying to sort out clients' claims. And I'll be hard-pressed to charge for most of this time because 'agents aren't involved'.

Although the furlough scheme by and large worked fine, I've just this morning got off the phone to HMRC (after a 45 minute wait time, and 30 minute call) regarding a company payroll client that HMRC says is ineligible for the scheme but is quite clearly eligible. This is the third telephone call to HMRC to attempt to resolve this problem, and it still has not been sorted out. Apparently there is a problem with a number of clients who had set up contractor schemes as well as payroll schemes and the system is saying they are not eligible. They are looking into this but cannot give a date when it will be resolved by. In the meantime my client cannot access any government funds so I've told him to cease all payments to HMRC (VAT, PAYE) until it is resolved.

If there are these sorts of problems in the relatively straightforward furlough scheme, which has been mainly claimed for by agents, then god only knows what problems are awaiting our clients (and by default, us) later this week and the coming weeks. The guy I was taking to this morning from the technical department of HMRC said they are trying to clear as many outstanding problems as possible this week because they are expecting a deluge when the SEISS opens on the 13th. At your stations, men!

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Replying to djames:
By Silver Birch Accts
11th May 2020 15:49

Calm down dear, think of your blood pressure.

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By Stalytax
11th May 2020 12:59

The cynic in me is convinced that we will lose some clients who use their newly set up Government Gateway to submit their own tax returns in the future.

The same cynic also thinks that that outcome is something HMRC will relish, as they will be unrepresented and ripe for MTD (where you just have to take pictures of your receipts with your mobile, apparently, using new 'Magic Beans' software) and quarterly payments.

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Morph
By kevinringer
12th May 2020 14:35

There's a lot more to MTD than the GG account. I have sent instructions to my clients telling them how to apply and I recon most will be able to setup their GG account but none of them could handle MTD.

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