Just what is it that accountants do?

Just what is it that accountants do?

Didn't find your answer?

Imagine my despair.

https://www.accountingweb.co.uk/anyanswers/question/salary-v-divs-spreadsheet

Should accountants be toolmakers? or tool users? or just tools?

Replies (18)

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By chatman
23rd Oct 2012 13:48

Why not?
If you are not organised enough to set up your own template, why not pay someone a few quid (probably less than you would pay a junior) to do it for you?

I pay people to do my scanning, and don't see anything wrong with that.

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By Canary Boy
23rd Oct 2012 14:08

What are you

getting at? I looked and couldn't see your point!

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By ireallyshouldknowthisbut
23rd Oct 2012 14:27

.

I think the point is if you know your stuff you probably don't need a spreadsheet to do it roughly, and if you don't know - building the thing is probably a good plan to learn how the rules work rather than it being a big mystery. 

It would take what, 15 minutes to build one from scratch?

 

 

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Replying to lionofludesch:
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By Finansol Tax Calculators
23rd Oct 2012 17:34

you are joking?

ireallyshouldknowthisbut wrote:

It would take what, 15 minutes to build one from scratch?

 

I don't know what sort of software you could be talking about. To build something that caters for every combination of profits, salary and / or dividend that any customer may want to enter, and calculate all the taxes accurately, your estimate is hugely inaccurate!

Rest assured that all our customers understand the rules, can explain the calculations to their clients, and could do the calculations themselves if they wanted to.

They choose to use software because, if they want to look at several possibilites, it is far more efficient to click a button and have the work done for them.

Finansol Tax Calculators

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By George Attazder
23rd Oct 2012 15:12

My point

Is that if those that are selling accountancy services to the great british populus, are using bought in software and decision making tools, then it seems to me that there's no "accountancy" going on.  They're just data processors.

Trading standards should probably be knocking on all their doors, explaining how they're misselling their data processing services.

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Replying to davidbrewster:
By Canary Boy
23rd Oct 2012 15:48

Ah George I

see what you mean now. 'Tis a fine line you draw between using "tools" to make the job easier and doing everything from scratch.

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By paulwakefield1
23rd Oct 2012 17:41

Quite right

"Is that if those that are selling accountancy services to the great british populus, are using bought in software"

I read the OP and was left spluttering through my beard over my tea and DT. The youth of today just don't realise that there is nothing wrong with a quill pen and a proper leather bound ledger and a few T accounts. Worked for my grandad and works for me. None of this fancy VT or Sage stuff for me. ;-)

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By chatman
23rd Oct 2012 17:49

Time-saving software

I must admit, I resisted using any small-business accounting and taxation programmes when they first came out, but over the years have moved over to buying these things more and more, even the little calculator-type things referred to here sometimes. When I am at my best, I build my spreadsheets properly, with input controls, error checks and cell protection etc, but I am not often at my best, so I recognise the benefits of getting something designed properly. It is more about the design than the accountancy.

The only danger is that by not doing the calculations yourself over and over again you get a bit rusty and get too reliant on the software.

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By carnmores
23rd Oct 2012 17:50

by george

to follow that thro would mean that you would do wages by hand , please NO

 

nothing wrong in the route of least resistance

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By pushtheriver
23rd Oct 2012 17:59

Me thinks you are talking through your abacus

I am one of the users of that very neat and reasonably priced software. I know the rules and should I have the inclination I could "do the maths" every time the question came up.

I could also design spreadsheets to format an extended TB into CA compliant accounts but why on earth would I waste my time?

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By George Attazder
23rd Oct 2012 18:00

10 mins

I must go and reexamine my own spreadsheet on this.  I clearly haven't made it complicated enough.

And all these people running around using "rules of thumb" on the dividend v salary question clearly need their heads examined.

@Paul I am with Canary Boy, that if something that's genuinely complex is being genuinely used as a tool, then that's emminently sensible.  There do seem to me to be a lot of people using tell me what the answer is software, who I fear would fail to spot a rogue answer if it jumped up and bit them on the [***] after they'd clicked on it.

If we're going to stop thinking about things, then why don't we just go one stage further and just make the answer up! Save all that money on the software!

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By Finansol Tax Calculators
08th Nov 2012 10:48

As this thread started because our customers recommended our software, I would just like to add some further comments:

Ours is not spreadsheet based. We use VB programming, with a 'neat' (thank you pushtheriver) customer interface. All the user sees is their entries, and their results.

Our approach also helps to make sure the customer can't accidently enter something that would give a ludicrous result, for example negative profits after salary, NI on that salary, corporation tax and dividend.

I am pleased to say there never has and never will be a 'rogue answer' in our calculations. Our calculations are always accurate, as they are so very thoroughly tested. But if hypothetically there was an error, then I have every confidence that our customers would notice it. They understand and think about the answers.

www.finansol.co.uk

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By George Attazder
24th Oct 2012 11:15

No, no, no

I didn't ask my question because your customers recommended your software.  I'm sure your sofyware's very good, since you defend it so robustly.  No, I asked my question because there was a need amongst those that call themselves accountants for software for each and every trivial calculation.

I accept that in order to produce accounts, one needs software to process large volumes of transactions.  I also accept carnmores point that it's completely tedious processing payroll information manually (does anybody else remember completing forms P11 by hand?).

There's no need (in my mind) for a tool to tell you, in any given situation, if people did take the trouble to "run the numbers" each year, they'd find that those people just apply "rules of thumb" have condensed all the calculation to a set of turning points that hold good in all situations.

My issue is that these sorts of software mean that my grandchildren have the means at their disposal to do the very thing that I do (and think they can), whilst lacking the experience to notice when the advice they start to pedal just isn't correct (either due to faulty software or faulty inputs).

Why not write some "expert" diagnostic and surgical procedures tuition software so that we can all go and be doctors?

If the advice is merely the result of inputting data into software, then what is it that "accountants" do?

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Replying to Mr_Paulius:
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By Roland195
24th Oct 2012 11:13

Been to a garage lately?

George Attazder wrote:
Why not right some "expert" diagnostic and surgical procedures tuition software so that we can all go and be doctors?

The first thing the grease monkeys do these days is hook your car's onboard computer up to their diagnostic machine and ask what's wrong.

Then they suck through their front teeth and tell you you need new brake pads too.

 

 

 

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Replying to Mr_Paulius:
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By Finansol Tax Calculators
25th Oct 2012 10:42

disagree

George Attazder wrote:

There's no need (in my mind) for a tool to tell you, in any given situation, if people did take the trouble to "run the numbers" each year, they'd find that those people just apply "rules of thumb" have condensed all the calculation to a set of turning points that hold good in all situations.

 

Your so-called rules of thumb cannot be applied everywhere. There can be all sorts of reasons why shareholders want or need a particular salary or dividend that is not prescribed by your rules of thumb. They need a combination that is as close as possible to what they desire, while also being tax-efficient. The accountant will advise, in full knowledge of their client's situation. The software removes the time and tedium when trying many combinations until they get a solution that is best both for the client's situation and as tax efficient as possible.

I'm sure that none of our customers would go to a client, advising a particular action 'because the software says so'. They would go armed with an understanding of why each calculation shows the figures it does. They'd be able to explain exactly which figures went into the income tax, NI and corporation tax calculations, the effects of small alterations pushing the income into different bands, effect on whether any personal allowance is due, tapering of personal allowance, exactly which amounts must be deducted before dividend can be paid, effects on company profits and whether company has small profits or into marginal relief, and lots more...Then they will fit the ideas from the software around everything else they know of their client, including lifestyle, preferences and the rest of their accounting and tax affairs.

At the same time, the client will be pleased with a nicely printed report of the combinations the accountant has suggested, including the exact amounts of all the applicable taxes, to which they can later refer.

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By George Attazder
24th Oct 2012 11:31

Roland

It won't surprise you to learn that I prefer to drive a classic car.

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By B Roberts
24th Oct 2012 11:50

Been to a (add title here) lately ?

Further to the "been to a garage lately" comment, have you been to a Solicitor lately, or been to a Doctor lately ?

This type of approach is being used more and more across all trades/professions (I don't want to get into a "trade/profession" debate as there is one on this site already !).

It is similar to the calculator argument when I was at school, in that it was perceived by many to be inferior to doing manual calculations.

Technology has moved on massively since then and will continue to do so into the future.

Accountants (and others) can choose to use/embrace this, or to continue as they were.

eg. a Flat Rate VAT calculation could be done in (say) 5 minutes rather than (say) one hour - the Accountant could then spend the 55 minutes saved doing something else.

 

Ps - Before the usual "if it takes you an hour to do such a calculation then you should hang your head in shame and not call yourself an Accountant" type response, thetimes quoted are to illustrate the point and are therefore for "illustration purposes only". The point being that these programs save time which the Accountant could then use to add more value, generate more income or just relax !

 

 

 

 

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By George Attazder
24th Oct 2012 16:42

Yes, you're right, I'd forgotten...

... the nice printed report!

Seriously, I don't have a problem with software solutions.  Technology is a tool that does make life easier and helps to reduce human error.

My only concern is that there are people that, having all these wonderful tools, are telling our lovely public that they're accountants (because they've got software that gives them all the necessary answers), but that, when push comes to shove, they don't actually know their armpit from their elbow.

Obviously, it goes without saying that none of the ones that can't make that distinction are your customers.

PS I find it absolutely shameful that B Roberts should take a whole hour doing a manual Flat Rate calculation manually!

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