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MTD submissions - corrections

Does anyone know if it will be possible to resubmit?

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Does anyone know if it will be possible to resubmit MTD submissions in the same way as RTI?

Or will it be the same system, adjust on next VAT return or form 652?

Replies (21)

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RLI
By lionofludesch
08th Feb 2019 08:01

Who knows ?

I would imagine that there'll be a lot more errors but HMRC say, no, it'll be so easy that errors will become a thing of the past once MTD starts. ©

So no need to make arrangements for corrections.

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By Wanderer
08th Feb 2019 08:33

Doubt if re-submissions for corrections will be possible. That's surely one of the major failings of the current system. Can't see HMRC improving this in any way.

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By SteLacca
08th Feb 2019 08:50

No-one knows if even the initial submissions will work en-masse, yet. Let alone corrections.

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By Duggimon
08th Feb 2019 08:59

It's pretty unlikely. For all the trumpeting, the new system will be the same as the old system but with a different interface for which you need new software.

The big change is in how you're meant to keep your records, but initially there will be no change to the actual filing so I doubt there'll be an introduction of new functionality like that.

Just think of it as the same as the old system except, instead of using the HMRC website, you have to buy your own version of it to put the numbers in.

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Replying to Duggimon:
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By Matrix
08th Feb 2019 09:06

But I think the risk of errors goes up, imagine if a business switched boxes 1 and 4 when picking them up from bridging software and HMRC is expecting 5 times the amount of VAT.

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By johnhemming
08th Feb 2019 09:33

It is not possible to resubmit through the APIs. I have not had any errors, but I know that there is a manual process to correct wrong submissions. However, it is a manual process not an automated one. To be fair to HMRC this is how the current gateway works, although you have a draft when you send the final return then that's it - as far as the electronic systems go.

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By bernard michael
08th Feb 2019 10:54

What are still puzzles (or at least to me)
What happens (if anything) when the MTD submissions during the year are different in total to the annual accounts.
Accounting adjustment journals are often dated to coincide with other transactions earlier than the year end. Are these just MTD'd at the next submission
Or doesn't any of the above matter to HMRC so why should it to us

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Replying to bernard michael:
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By johnhemming
08th Feb 2019 11:42

This is the same as it is at the moment. The idea at the moment is that your quarterly submissions are the same as should be the case annually (all added up together). If there are errors then they need to be fixed in the data. This is easy with a spreadsheet based system. It shouldn't be that difficult with an integrated accounting system whether that is fully on the cloud or only on the cloud to the extent it is used for MTD.

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Replying to bernard michael:
Tornado
By Tornado
08th Feb 2019 18:24

Cash Accounting submissions will always be different to those shown in the Annual Accounts as there is VAT on debtors and creditors to account for on the Balance Sheet at the year end, and how many people have VAT periods that coincide with their year ends anyway.

There will be no direct correlation between VAT submissions and Annual Accounts other than in the Accountant's working papers for those on Cash Accounting or with VAT periods that do not coincide with the trading year end.

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Replying to Tornado:
RLI
By lionofludesch
08th Feb 2019 18:36

Tornado wrote:
...... and how many people have VAT periods that coincide with their year ends anyway?

All of mine do.

I can't be bothering with splitting VAT periods up when I reconcile the balance

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By urstop
13th Feb 2019 13:34

VAT corrections will need to be addressed the old way. Fill out forms, post to HMRC. MTD is only for the initial VAT submissions.

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Replying to urstop:
RLI
By lionofludesch
13th Feb 2019 13:42

So you're saying that corrections can't be made on the return - no matter how small ?

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Replying to lionofludesch:
Tornado
By Tornado
13th Feb 2019 13:57

They only spent 1200 million pounds on MTD and that bought us a system that can cope with nine figures processed electronically instead of being typed in.

What more can you expect from such a paltry budget.

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Replying to lionofludesch:
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By johnhemming
13th Feb 2019 14:27

As I understand it and I don't claim total accuracy on this the current system allow corrections on the next return as long as the amount is less than 10K (I am sure someone will know this).

MTD operates in a similar way, but there is a manual process for corrections where the systems go wrong. To what extent this will apply for accounting systems errors is a question for which I don't have an answer.

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Replying to johnhemming:
RLI
By lionofludesch
13th Feb 2019 14:34

johnhemming wrote:
<

MTD operates in a similar way, but there is a manual process for corrections where the systems go wrong.

That can't be right.

HMRC specifically told the HoL that MTD would eliminate errors.

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By david.bransbury
13th Feb 2019 17:52

MTD for VAT is not changing the VAT rules apart from the digital record keeping rules and the submission using API rule. So the current VAT rule on correction stands.

"You can adjust your next VAT Return if the net value of the errors is £10,000 or less. You can also adjust your next VAT Return if your error amount is up to 1% of your box 6 figure (up to a maximum of £50,000). You must report the error to HMRC if it's above the reporting threshold."

https://developer.service.hmrc.gov.uk/api-documentation/assets/content/d...(E2E)%20Customer%20Journeys.pdf

Per this document if you try to adjust a current return with an adjustment larger than allowed you should get an error message.

I have heard nothing that to say form652 e.g. when you have a £60,000 error to become digital.

Regarding MTD for IT I need hear there was going to be a correct prior submissions ability. In any case once you have submitted the final quarterly return then you have nearly nine months to say the total of the four quarters is ok or do adjustments so you are happy with the year end figures.

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Replying to david.bransbury:
RLI
By lionofludesch
13th Feb 2019 18:03

david.bransbury wrote:

MTD for VAT is not changing the VAT rules apart from the digital record keeping rules and the submission using API rule. So the current VAT rule on correction stands.

"You can adjust your next VAT Return if the net value of the errors is £10,000 or less. You can also adjust your next VAT Return if your error amount is up to 1% of your box 6 figure (up to a maximum of £50,000). You must report the error to HMRC if it's above the reporting threshold."

They forgot to add "...if you can work out how to do it."

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Replying to david.bransbury:
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By johnhemming
13th Feb 2019 19:32

I am glad you confirm the figure of 10K. I don't know where to source that figure.

Income Tax does have a process whereby you submit for a period and as far as I can see it also allow modifications for that period. It then has a process of crystalisation which is process where you confirm that the details are finalised.

The VAT api has a finalised flag, but I have not seen it be anything other than final.

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By PHB999
27th Feb 2019 19:37

Using sage 50 accounts for clients I have managed to submit returns for 1/4 to 31st December 18 that have been picked up on system as 1/4 to March 19
Have now resubmitted but no idea how I can withdraw March returns
Cannot send 652 as will not know error until end of March
HMRC helpline completely useless- calls end after explanation of our operators busy with curt “goodbye” no options to hold on
Any ideas out there

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Replying to PHB999:
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By johnhemming
27th Feb 2019 20:03

This has not happened for any of my clients, but I know this has been happening for quite a few people. HMRC have not been very pleased and have sent out lots of emails to suppliers asking them to stop this from happening. It doesn't help you directly, but HMRC are bringing in validation to reject VAT returns submitted for periods that have not yet ended. This should be applied to the system some time in early March. (After the filing date for Q4 2018)

My guess is that officially you have not submitted your fourth quarter of 2018 return.

It is almost certainly possible to use bridging software to submit the return for Q418 (probably period key 18A4, but it might be something else). However, you have to watch out for paying twice through direct debit. That depends in part on what response you got from the API when you submitted the return (Sage may store this somewhere and they may not). I am pretty certain, however, that you will need a manual fix for the return submitted for the wrong quarter.

It would, of course, be possible to use another MTD providers software to find out precisely what your situation is with HMRC if Sage don't provide that information.

Most of the bridging providers are offering a free service so if you contact one of us then they can probably find out precisely what is going on - and possibly get your Q4 return submitted.

If you want any more detailed advice it might be best to talk to me directly.

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Replying to PHB999:
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By johnhemming
28th Feb 2019 09:26

I do have a detailed answer to this, but last time I posted it got lost in cyberspace so I will update this.

Update: This is a known problem. HMRC are updating the software after the filing date in March (which is around 9th March) to prevent submissions for periods which have not ended.

If people want an explanation of the cause of this I can explain it.

Probably HMRC will automatically remove your wrong submission, but you can find out by querying the obligations API. Obviously there could be an issue with a double debiting of a direct debit, but as we get into complicated issues relating to your own situation it is probably best to talk directly if you want any more info.

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