Share this content
32

MTD worked fine for all my first submissions

MTD now being rejected for all my clients

Didn't find your answer?

Using VT to file my MTD VAT returns and all clients were successfuly registerd and all first returns accepted with no problems.

Staring on my second round of filings and so far all of them have been rejected because "According to HMRC the VAT number set up in VT is not associated with the Government Gateway user ID used to grant authority"

I have checked all my settings and all look OK. Anyone else come across this?

Many thanks

Replies (32)

Please login or register to join the discussion.

RLI
By lionofludesch
26th Oct 2019 18:14

Bless me.

It all bodes well for the future.

Is it anything to do with Bexit ?

Thanks (1)
avatar
By johnhemming
26th Oct 2019 18:19

That sounds like a 403 error. I did have a client with a temporary 500 error last week. If I were you I would try running Oauth2 again (the granting authority thingy). If that does not work I can run diagnostics to find out what is going on on Monday if you wish.

Thanks (2)
Replying to johnhemming:
avatar
By jaffe123
26th Oct 2019 18:24

Many thanks, I have, as suggested, run authority again for one of my clients - will wait and see what happens before doing all the others

Thanks (0)
Replying to johnhemming:
avatar
By vtsoftware
27th Oct 2019 10:51

John. It is indeed the CLIENT_OR_AGENT_NOT_AUTHORISED error (see http://www.vtsoftware.co.uk/mtd/themtderror.htm). I'm curious as to what diagnostics you can carry out?

Thanks (0)
Replying to vtsoftware:
avatar
By johnhemming
27th Oct 2019 13:29

We have been through this before. However, the first step is to find out what sort of error occurs and whether it occurs with another MTD supplier.

I can also trace the communication with HMRC's servers at a low transactional level.

Sometimes HMRC's servers respond materially different to different parameters. Quite a few people, for example, have come to me because their MTD supplier cannot handle VAT returns for periods in 2018.

I can also find out whether the period key is numeric or not.

Thanks (0)
Replying to johnhemming:
avatar
By vtsoftware
27th Oct 2019 15:21

Really?

The error code is already known.

A single call to HMRC's server is being made and that is getting the response CLIENT_OR_AGENT_NOT_AUTHORISED. There is nothing else to trace.

There is no question of it being a software issue with VT.

The retrieve obligations call is failing so you cannot detect if numeric period keys are in use.

Would you not just be confusing the user further?

Thanks (0)
avatar
By JoF
26th Oct 2019 18:31

Via VT software or via their excel add in?

Thanks (1)
Replying to JoF:
avatar
By jaffe123
26th Oct 2019 19:33

VT software then tried the add in - both rejected

Thanks (0)
avatar
By vtsoftware
27th Oct 2019 09:56

This does sound a bit odd. Are you granting authority using an agent services account (in which case the same authority applies to all your clients)? Or, put another way, are you ticking the agent tick box in the Grant Authority dialog?

Philip Hodgson
VT Software

Thanks (1)
Replying to vtsoftware:
avatar
By jaffe123
27th Oct 2019 10:11

Yes, Agent box ticked

Thanks (0)
Replying to jaffe123:
avatar
By JoF
27th Oct 2019 10:16

My initial thoughts had been around the excel add in option and the need to use one workbook for each client (mistake I made, not reading VT instructions properly first time round!!) but this is odd as its both parts of their offerings.

Just a random thought, if you log on to your ASA does all look ok?

Thanks (1)
Replying to JoF:
avatar
By jaffe123
27th Oct 2019 10:32

Yes, all clients showing on ASA and all showing as registered for MTD

Thanks (0)
avatar
By vtsoftware
27th Oct 2019 10:42

I would grant authority again making absolutely sure you are using the government gateway ID for your agent services account. If the agent box is ticked in the Grant Authority dialog, it does not matter which client you have open at the time or whether you are in VT Transaction+ or VT MTD for Excel.

Thanks (1)
Replying to vtsoftware:
avatar
By jaffe123
27th Oct 2019 10:56

I have granted authority again for 2 clients, just waiting for the confirmation before I do all the others (just in case!)

Thanks (0)
Replying to jaffe123:
avatar
By vtsoftware
27th Oct 2019 11:46

I'm glad its working, but if the agent box is ticked you just need to grant authority once, so I'm a bit confused.

Thanks (0)
Replying to vtsoftware:
avatar
By jaffe123
27th Oct 2019 12:06

OK, this is weird, I re-authorised 2 clients, just tried to file them and they worked OK, weird thing is that ALL my clients are now working again. A glitch at HMRC??

Thanks (0)
Replying to jaffe123:
avatar
By vtsoftware
27th Oct 2019 13:15

That sounds correct to me. You just need to grant authority once and it applies to all your clients (if the agent box is ticked).

Thanks (1)
Replying to vtsoftware:
avatar
By jaffe123
27th Oct 2019 15:10

Thanks for your time today. Only thing I don't understand is why they stopped working in the first place considering I had no problems first time round and I haven't added anyone new. At least I know how to correct it if it happens again.

Thanks (0)
Replying to jaffe123:
avatar
By johnhemming
27th Oct 2019 13:34

I don't think it is that. It sounds like you have multiple copies of the authorisation tokens. What that means is that as you authorise a second MTD client you cause the first MTD client's token to become deauthorised.

This is exactly the sort of thing where it is work having a second implementation of MTD software as you can pin down where the problem lies. It can save a lot of time.

What you should do is to find a way of looking up the vat returns previously submitted for your clients and check if the authorisation works for that. Although the scope is different for read and write it still tests the underlying principles.

Thanks (0)
Replying to johnhemming:
avatar
By vtsoftware
27th Oct 2019 15:16

It can't be 'multiple copies of the authorisation tokens', John, as you don't get the CLIENT_OR_AGENT_NOT_AUTHORISED error when that happens. I don't know off-hand the error code you do get, but VT gives a different error message which simply invites the user to grant authority again.

Thanks (0)
Replying to vtsoftware:
avatar
By johnhemming
27th Oct 2019 15:44

We will have to agree to disagree on this one. If the token is invalid you get an error message 403 . That indeed is described as "CLIENT_OR_AGENT_NOT_AUTHORISED" as you can see in the documentation which is published here:
https://developer.service.hmrc.gov.uk/api-documentation/docs/api/service...

What happens with some implementations is that there are multiple copies of the authorisation tokens (either for a client or for an ASA). Hence if the OP has one account which is not set up in your software as being on the ASA, but is on the ASA every time that account is authorised it invalidates all the others.

My guess is that this is what is happening.

Thanks (0)
Replying to johnhemming:
avatar
By vtsoftware
27th Oct 2019 16:53

I thought you meant that the refresh token had already been used. That can happen to a business in VT if a copy is made of the VTT+ file or an Excel workbook and then both the copy and the original are used for MTD. In that case the user gets a fairly clear message. It can't happen if the agent box is ticked as the codes are stored in a single central place.

I can't follow what you otherwise mean as a user can grant authority an unlimited number of times and there is no way in VT that the codes can get mixed up.

I think the user here was under the mis-apprehension that even as agent he had to grant authority separately for each client. Arguably that is a weakness of the user interface. On one occasion he has used the government gateway ID for his agent account in error and not for his ASA. That has overwritten the single authorisation code held for the agent in VT with an invalid one and immediately affected all the user's clients. I think that explanation fits all the facts presented today.

Thanks (0)
Replying to vtsoftware:
avatar
By johnhemming
27th Oct 2019 17:24

Indeed obviously you understand your software better than me. It remains, however, that this is a 403 error which indicates that for some reason the tokens are invalid.

Thanks (0)
Replying to vtsoftware:
avatar
By jaffe123
27th Oct 2019 17:40

Your final paragraph, exactly what I did, I thought each client had to be authorised separately and that is what I did, didn't realise ticking the agent box did them all. And yes, I used my agent account instead of the ASA for one client (3 months ago) and this is the first client that failed filing this weekend.

I have however filed VAT returns for other clients after this mistake.
Maybe it didn't cause a problem until I tried to file that client again this time?

I re-authorised that client (correctly) this weekend which is probably why they all worked again.

Thanks (0)
avatar
By jaffe123
27th Oct 2019 15:11

Thanks everyone for their time today, especially as it's a Sunday.

Thanks (0)
Bramble
By Chris.Mann
28th Oct 2019 08:20

Based upon this thread, HMRC still has some work to do?

I remain unsure what the benefits are, of the move to MTD? The agent services accounts appears to be, simply a stepping stone (to link client's across to MTD) and serves no other useful purpose?

Thanks (0)
Replying to Chris.Mann:
avatar
By johnhemming
28th Oct 2019 08:48

Chris.Mann wrote:

Based upon this thread, HMRC still has some work to do?


It was not an HMRC error.

Chris.Mann wrote:

I remain unsure what the benefits are, of the move to MTD? The agent services accounts appears to be, simply a stepping stone (to link client's across to MTD) and serves no other useful purpose?


The ASA enables an accountant to submit returns and track deadlines for the clients by simply authorising software every 18 months. For some MTD suppliers this does not work that well, but that is not HMRC's fault.

There are two separate arguments about digital tax.
a) Is digital tax a good idea, does it reduce the amount of tax not collected?
b) If we are having digital tax should we have light touch approach of MTD (with digital links) or go for the heavy option of the OECD SAF-T format with all transactions being submitted to the tax authorities.

We won't know the answer to a) for some time, but countries are moving in that direction not just the UK.

I think most people would prefer MTD to sending everything to the revenue.

Thanks (0)
Replying to johnhemming:
RLI
By lionofludesch
28th Oct 2019 10:28

johnhemming wrote:

a) Is digital tax a good idea, does it reduce the amount of tax not collected?

We won't know the answer to a) for some time ......

We'll never know the answer to a).

Any conclusion we draw will be purely speculative.

Thanks (1)
Replying to johnhemming:
Bramble
By Chris.Mann
28th Oct 2019 15:44

From what I can see here ; "Using VT to file my MTD VAT returns and all clients were successfuly registerd and all first returns accepted with no problems".

The OP had a (seemingly) successful submission programme, for his/her first tranche of Vat submissions? Presumably, he/she hasn't made any purposeful changes, within the registration arrangements?

If these two elements are as stated then, why oh why, can't HMRC's systems be culpable?

You have to admit John, the transition, across to MTD, has hardly been flawless, has it? I don't recall the introduction of RTI being as this "clumsy".

Thanks (0)
Replying to Chris.Mann:
avatar
By jaffe123
28th Oct 2019 16:47

Yes, I found the transition with VT to be very simple and not as daunting as I was expecting. My mistake was registering one of my clients via my normal agent account rather than the ASA account. That threw everything out as per vtsoftware replies. My mistake not HMRC's

Thanks (0)
Replying to Chris.Mann:
avatar
By johnhemming
28th Oct 2019 17:00

The transition has varied and there have been some technical problems, but for some people it was easy and essentially free.

Thanks (0)
Replying to Chris.Mann:
RLI
By lionofludesch
28th Oct 2019 10:19

Chris.Mann wrote:

Based upon this thread, HMRC still has some work to do?

I remain unsure what the benefits are, of the move to MTD?

For the trader ?

None at all.

Be sure.

For HMRC ?

None at all. Though that may change.

Thanks (1)
Share this content