NB. Job Retention Scheme -NEW Guidance

Essential reading re furloughing

Didn't find your answer?

Here is a link to today's NEW guidance re the Job Retention Scheme  (substantially expanded) - IMHO essential reading.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/claim-for-wage-costs-through-the-coronavirus...

[Thanks to John Stodyk for drawing attention to this guidance in a separate thread re overtime pay]

Basil. 

 

Replies (28)

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RLI
By lionofludesch
04th Apr 2020 14:47

The advice on statutory duties has changed too.

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ALISK
By atleastisoundknowledgable...
04th Apr 2020 15:13

WTF, e’ers have to set up PAYE Online.

Does this mean that Accountants can’t make the claim unless they a) make sure all clients have an account and b) log into the clients account to make the claim?

What are people’s views on making claims now?

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Replying to atleastisoundknowledgable...:
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By LAURA BUTLER
04th Apr 2020 15:26

that sounds like a massive admin job but compare to the even bigger admin job of trying to get clients to do it themselves

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Replying to LAURA BUTLER:
ALISK
By atleastisoundknowledgable...
04th Apr 2020 15:29

LAURA BUTLER wrote:

that sounds like a massive admin job but compare to the even bigger admin job of trying to get clients to do it themselves

I didn’t want to, but we’re going to have to charge for this now, just something nominal like £30-£50 per client. I was hoping that it would be something that we had easy access to ourselves and could rattle them off.

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Replying to atleastisoundknowledgable...:
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By legerman
04th Apr 2020 23:54

atleastisoundknowledgable... wrote:

WTF, e’ers have to set up PAYE Online.

Does this mean that Accountants can’t make the claim unless they a) make sure all clients have an account and b) log into the clients account to make the claim?

What are people’s views on making claims now?

Which bit says that you have to set up paye online

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Replying to legerman:
blue sheep
By NH
05th Apr 2020 08:03

One way or another I am 100% sure that we will be doing this for clients, how easy that will be remains to be seen

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By LAURA BUTLER
04th Apr 2020 15:22

does anyone know whether you need to keep employers liability insurance in place if you have furloughed all employees? I'm thinking it'll be yes but wanted to see what you guys think?

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Replying to LAURA BUTLER:
ALISK
By atleastisoundknowledgable...
04th Apr 2020 15:27

LAURA BUTLER wrote:

does anyone know whether you need to keep employers liability insurance in place if you have furloughed all employees? I'm thinking it'll be yes but wanted to see what you guys think?

I’d go with yes - they’re still employed.

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By insolventnl
04th Apr 2020 16:02

Am I right in concluding based on the below for Company Directors

"they may do so provided they do no more than would reasonably be judged necessary for that purpose, for instance, they should not do work of a kind they would carry out in normal circumstances to generate commercial revenue or provides services to or on behalf of their company."

PAYE -> In normal circumstances, a director pays themself to generete commercial revenue for the company

And therefore not eligible for JRS

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Replying to insolventnl:
RLI
By lionofludesch
04th Apr 2020 16:21

insolventnl wrote:

Am I right in concluding based on the below for Company Directors

"they may do so provided they do no more than would reasonably be judged necessary for that purpose, for instance, they should not do work of a kind they would carry out in normal circumstances to generate commercial revenue or provides services to or on behalf of their company."

PAYE -> In normal circumstances, a director pays themself to generete commercial revenue for the company

And therefore not eligible for JRS

There are folk on here who are absolutely resolute in their determination to deny their clients the assistance offered by the Government.

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Replying to lionofludesch:
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By insolventnl
04th Apr 2020 16:28

Im guessing you disagree with me.

Personally I would rather give the right advise rather than what they would like to hear.

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Replying to insolventnl:
Red Leader
By Red Leader
04th Apr 2020 16:32

Ah yes but are you absolutely right?

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Replying to insolventnl:
RLI
By lionofludesch
04th Apr 2020 16:34

insolventnl wrote:

Im guessing you disagree with me.

Personally I would rather give the right advise rather than what they would like to hear.

How is running the payroll not a statutory duty? In any sense whatsoever?

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Replying to lionofludesch:
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By insolventnl
04th Apr 2020 17:01

lionofludesch wrote:

insolventnl wrote:

Im guessing you disagree with me.

Personally I would rather give the right advise rather than what they would like to hear.

How is running the payroll not a statutory duty? In any sense whatsoever?

I am not saying I am right

Also I dont know - I tried looking for the statutory guideines and could not find it saying that running payroll is one of them

The way I look at it is, if you set up a new company and do nothing with it. So no trade, then you still have to file accounts, AR as per the statutory duties.

Which kind of means anyhting else arises as a result of your trading. Hence payroll also. Add to that the fact you pay yourself or staff because they egnerate revenue for the company (well majority do for that reason) it makes it more complicated.

I would be gratefu if you can show me where it states specificaly that running payroll is a statutory duty.

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Replying to insolventnl:
RLI
By lionofludesch
04th Apr 2020 17:20

insolventnl wrote:

lionofludesch wrote:

insolventnl wrote:

Im guessing you disagree with me.

Personally I would rather give the right advise rather than what they would like to hear.

How is running the payroll not a statutory duty? In any sense whatsoever?

I am not saying I am right

Also I dont know - I tried looking for the statutory guideines and could not find it saying that running payroll is one of them

The way I look at it is, if you set up a new company and do nothing with it. So no trade, then you still have to file accounts, AR as per the statutory duties.

Which kind of means anyhting else arises as a result of your trading. Hence payroll also. Add to that the fact you pay yourself or staff because they egnerate revenue for the company (well majority do for that reason) it makes it more complicated.

I would be gratefu if you can show me where it states specificaly that running payroll is a statutory duty.

How are your staff generating revenue when they're on furlough?

Look at the Companies Act 2006 s172 and the PAYE regs. If you're still not happy you must of course go with your minority view.

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Replying to lionofludesch:
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By unearned luck
05th Apr 2020 15:31

How is running the payroll a statutory duty for the purposes of the JRS?

1) "Statutory duty" is defined in the revised guidance by reference to the duties imposed by the CA, not by Statutes in general, eg The PAYE Regulations.
2) The phrase is further defined as "statutory obligations [directors] owe to their company". The obligation to operate a PAYE scheme is imposed by the law on the employer (ie the company) and not on the directors personally and furthermore is owed to the state and not to the company.
3) if 'running' the payroll was a statutory duty of directors then that would make every wages clerk and every payroll bureau a shadow director.
4) If in normal times the director runs the payroll then they can't do so when furloughed nor can the director start to do so because the wages clerk has been furloughed or made redundant or the bureau sacked to save money.) Running the payroll (and paying staff) is providing a service to the company and providing services to the employer is explicitly banned, save for the carve-out for SDs imposed by the CA (ie not by other acts) on directors (ie not on the company) to their company (ie not to the state) .

It is important not to confuse responsibility with duty.

I suspect that the government has in mind that it is OK for a furloughed director to attend board meetings, to approve the accounts and any tax returns and forms at Companies House that may need filing and so on. In short he or she must become a non-executive director.

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Replying to unearned luck:
RLI
By lionofludesch
05th Apr 2020 16:20

unearned luck wrote:

3) if 'running' the payroll was a statutory duty of directors then that would make every wages clerk and every payroll bureau a shadow director.

Bit of a stretch there. A director may delegate a duty but, ultimately, the director is still responsible for seeing that it's done. Telling a wages clerk to file RTI doesn't, in my view, make him a shadow director.

We've had the issue of statutory duties for years. It's not new. It's exactly the same principle as SMP. If you work on maternity leave, there's no SMP (KIT days apart).

I think you'll be hard pushed to find someone who's been told at a PAYE visit that they shouldn't have claimed SMP because they had the temerity to pay it.

But - there's only so many ways I can say the same thing over and over again. I've not changed my view since day 1 and HMRC seem to be making it ever clearer that directors can claim. You must do what your conscience tells you.

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Replying to insolventnl:
ALISK
By atleastisoundknowledgable...
04th Apr 2020 16:55

insolventnl wrote:

PAYE -> In normal circumstances, a director pays themself to generete commercial revenue for the company

And therefore not eligible for JRS

Sorry - how does that not make them eligible for JRS? They’re not generating income, which is why they normally get paid.

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Replying to atleastisoundknowledgable...:
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By insolventnl
04th Apr 2020 17:07

Ah yes - this could be right. If they stopped paying themself for the three months as there is no income so no salary then I think they are in effect not even running the payroll and hence not doing anything (ie meet full conditions of being furoughed).

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Replying to insolventnl:
RLI
By lionofludesch
04th Apr 2020 19:41

insolventnl wrote:

Ah yes - this could be right. If they stopped paying themself for the three months as there is no income so no salary then I think they are in effect not even running the payroll and hence not doing anything (ie meet full conditions of being furoughed).

Right answer. Wrong reason. There's still a payroll, still RTI subnissions, the income still counts as taxable income.

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Replying to insolventnl:
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By Matrix
04th Apr 2020 20:44

You only applied for a practising certificate at the end of 2019 and people are paying you for “advise” and closing down their businesses already per the other thread where I am still waiting for you to respond? Sure.

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Replying to Matrix:
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By insolventnl
04th Apr 2020 23:37

You are absolutely right, thank you for highlighting.

However I did reply to you re my question as you chased me for that in another thread also. Am guessing when you were investigating into me, that might have been an oversight?

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Replying to insolventnl:
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By Matrix
05th Apr 2020 06:02

Yes I did see it but I don’t see why you can’t just close the loop on the original thread and confirm the dissolution is a liquidation.

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By pauld
04th Apr 2020 17:24

Deleted

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By Arakee
05th Apr 2020 11:16

The one bit of change I was waiting for is still there- "must have had a payroll on 28th February" bit!!

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ALISK
By atleastisoundknowledgable...
05th Apr 2020 11:23

Has anyone worked out yet what an ‘ePAYE’ reference is?!

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Replying to atleastisoundknowledgable...:
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By legerman
05th Apr 2020 15:05

atleastisoundknowledgable... wrote:

Has anyone worked out yet what an ‘ePAYE’ reference is?!

To my mind it's the employers ref no.

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Replying to legerman:
ALISK
By atleastisoundknowledgable...
05th Apr 2020 17:03

legerman wrote:

atleastisoundknowledgable... wrote:

Has anyone worked out yet what an ‘ePAYE’ reference is?!

To my mind it's the employers ref no.


So not some new fangled reference we have to apply for from somewhere?
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